The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #22279   Message #253282
Posted By: Tracey Dragonsfriend
07-Jul-00 - 02:37 AM
Thread Name: English Tradition, part two
Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two
Well, I really do seem to have stirred something up here, don't I! I suppose I should have expected that, but I must admit to being surprised at the vehemence of Filbert's opinions. Then again, we have seen an upswing in less-than-civilised behaviour in certain places of late, as the strength of the moral and ethical codes and the lack of education appear to be somewhat in decline in some areas of the UK population. Perhaps this has some bearing on the matter?

My argument is based on the fact that the UK is not actually a very large land mass, and that we are having trouble coping with the recent unsolicited massive influx of people from all over the world. We have had periods of mass immigration before, when people did indeed come here in search of useful work. These people came from many backgrounds, and were described as "Negroes" and "Indians" at the time. (I have no idea what the relevant PC term would be today, and as they came from many different backgrounds I'd be here for some time specifying their original homes.) This period of immigration shocked many, but these people genuinely wanted to work here and be part of the UK, and as such succeeded. The initial shock-and-fear attitudes have changed since then, and our communities do indeed include people of many colours and cultures working and living together. Not perfectly everywhere, but I never said we were perfect - nobody is.
However, we are now somewhat overcrowded here in these little islands, and have an ongoing unemployment problem. We have little actual work to offer, particularly to the unskilled, (where employment is in especially short supply) so the opportunities to work here are limited. However, we do offer various social support benefits, and (it has to be said, although I know this will offend some) great opportunities for begging and petty theft.
Before you explode with rage, Filbert, this is not just an uninformed opinion, but is based on a recent discussion with some friends in the police forces, who have seen a remarkable upturn in persons arrested for these offences who are from such backgrounds. This is also something I have discussed in passing with people from other countries, many of whom have space and jobs on offer, but not such attractive social benefits - Norway and Denmark, for example. As a person with an analytical scientific background, this data says something to me about the motives of those arriving in the UK, who will travel through any number of other European countries to reach us.
The "English Tradition, whatever that is, is not in danger from mere immigration, but from the attitudes of those already here and those arriving. I care about keeping my heritage alive, as I believe that such things are what binds us together as a nation. It simply makes me unhappy when such things are displaced in favour of the cultural values of others - I feel that these things can exist together. I think that we will be in trouble as a nation if we try to simply replace our values with those of other cultures - we run the risk of having to individual culture or heritage at all, leaving people adrift alone in a sea of conflicting values. I believe that we can actually see this happening, in the drift of how people consider their actions - from "is it good for the country?" to "is it good for my county?" through "is it good for my family?", all the way down to "is it good for me?". If one doesn't feel that you belong to a nation, by sharing it's values and cultures, one feels no drive to act for it's benefit. I think that we can actually see this, in the changing attitudes to such simple things as the cleanliness of our streets and other public places - I do not drop litter, gum or food un the street, I wouldn't dream of spitting on the floor, and I always clear up after myself in a fast-food restaurant... but I am now in the minority in some places. A simple thing, but quite revealing, I think.

By the way, Filbert, I'm not quite sure that I fit your description of "not very smart" terribly well. I am a member of Mensa with an IQ of approximately 165. I have 7 O-levels, 3 A-levels, and a BSc in Mathematics & Physics. I am currently the European Pre-sales & Post-sales Consultant & Trainer for a multinational software house providing PC-based enhancement packages for improving AS/400 and Mainframe interfaces. I travel Europe and the world extensively in the course of this job, which gives me many opportunites to meet interesting people of many countries. What level of intelligence, education and experience were you looking for in a member of this discussion group?
I am also well aware of the etymological background of "bollocks", as the origin of words of all kinds haoppens to be a hobby of mine. It's a recent derivitive of "ballocks", which is an extremely old word, being in common usage until around 1840, but considered a vulgarism since then.

Also, my thanks to everyone who contributed re dragons - I very much appreciate your input! I'll try to snatch a minute to check out your links, etc, leter today. I must dash now - I should really be checking my work email before a meeting today, not gabbing away here!