I didn't express myself very clearly above. All societies have sanctioned, institutionalized methods of punishing individuals who violate the rules and mores of the society. I think the expression of social disapproval and deterrence are inherent in the concept of punishment.   Incarceration is one form of punishment. It may serve purposes in addition to punishment within the context of a particular society at a particular point in time, but I think it's primary societal function is punishment.

To my knowledge all social groups impose punishments on those who violate social codes. While it is certainly true that social mores vary from culture to culture, including mores regarding what kinds of punishment are appropriate, all societies have formal systems of punishment, and for good reason. We can look at what is happening right now in Congo and Somalia where war has shredded all social order and see the effects of lack of institutionalized constraints on human behavior on a massive scale. I think that is an indication that institutionalized punishment does serve to constrain the behaviors of a significant number of members of a society, at least to the point that society can mostly fulfill it's necessary functions. The idea of treatment and rehabilitation is relatively modern, and only partially supported and funded as an expression of the values and intent of most societies who have added that element in as an adjunct to incarceration and punishment.

Captain Birdseye,

Again, I say it is not either/or. Certainly an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and I am a believer in and advocate for offering treatment and help to all who are willing to take advantage of it. I am also an advocate of personal responsibility. I believe each of us bear responsibility for our own adult choices, whether or not other individuals or the institutions of society do the same.   My parents, spouse, community or society may have failed in their responsibilities toward me. That does not, ultimately, absolve me from responsibility for my own actions.   I agree that alcoholism is a disease, and there is no question that alcohol both impairs judgement and disinhibits behaviors. Nonetheless, I am responsible for my choices, whether I make them drunk or sober.   I think the difference in our positions for the purposes of this discussion is simply that we are looking at it from two different perspectives. You are focusing on the needs of the individual and the ways that society may have failed the individual.    I am focusing on that delicate balance between the individual and society. Both are valid perspectives. I am not a big "law and order" type, and think we have way too many in prison in the USA. In the case of incest or sexual abuse of children, however, I think the interests of society combined with the interests of the individual victimized carry more weight than the interests of the perpetrator, and the direct actions of the perpetrator are so egregious, first to the child, and then to society, that inprisonment is called for. Social institutions certainly failed these children, and probably their mother. She is still ultimately responsible for her choices. I think incest must be punished by incarceration, not as revenge, but as a necessary societal communication of the value society places on that taboo.

Sleepy Rose, I've pondered similar questions myself for a long while. The ball of yarn that includes justice, vengeance, social control, the rights and responsibilities of society and the individual, and our innate attributes as human animals is an awfully tangled one. I don't think I agree that the idea of social punishment is inevitably seated in the desire for revenge, but it certainly can be. In some cultures vengeance is a clearly articulated piece of their sense of social justice. In others, or at other times within a culture, social justice is a mask for vengeance. Humans would not be endowed with the capacity to desire vengeance if it did not have functionality. So does justice serve vengeance, or does vengeance serve justice? Probably some of both, and the mix varies depending on the individual, the issue, and the times. I also think vengeance and justice, whether social or individual, is intwined with the need for validation. (what is more invalidating of personal boundaries, identity and bodily integrity than abuse!)

I know a lot of what was contained in "Courage to Heal", especially regarding repressed memories has been discredited, and with good reason.   Still, there is some value found in that book for those working toward healing from sexual abuse, and I occasionally draw some from the book in my public practice, which is heavily wieghted with adults who were physically and/or sexually abused as children.    This quote in particular is worth pondering: Living well is the best revenge.