I think Q had a point to make and was treated with ad hominem abuse, as if the real world conditions that Q was simply drawing to attention was what Q was advocating, which I don't think was the case. As a matter of fact many folks have advocated enlightened viewpoints which have ended up promoting, then defending absolute disaster.

Zimbabwe is an excellent example. Racism has been defended in the name of avoiding racism. And the people of Zimbabwe have not only starved, they are experiencing a totally unnecessary run of disease at the hands of a Hitlerite regime.

Similarly, the conditions in China may be as noted at the head of this thread, but China has come through a major shift in technology and modernization at a pace unrivalled in history by such a large population. China is also experiencing a surge of nationalism, and the entrenched power structure would likely be able to turn foreign sourced criticisms on their heads.

Not long ago it was cheap Japanese labor which was, so to speak, eating American labor's lunch. I worked at a place which the unions tried to organize, the owner called a plant meeting and declared that while he wanted to employ Americans, he could move his operations to Germany and find a value multiplier with labor over there. The union didn't win that vote. Since those times, and quite rapidly, Japanese labor has been supplanted by Singapore, Malaysia, Korea, and the march of factorization of inexpensive labor continues, and is also going to march upstream in class as more and more engineers are graduated in China, India, and the Mideast.

Q's point as I understand it is that if selective Chinese factories are targeted, the labor goes elsewhere, but the workers remain, instead of merely miserable, they will now be unemployed.

The development is inevitable until a balance is reached where there are no cheap alternatives to the employers of labor, sort of like what we perceive as happening to the sources of oil in the near future. The difference being that oil is a non-renewable resource, and population is not just renewable but growiing.

All one has to do is look at European history. The best thing that happened to labor in the middle ages was not organization. It was the plague.

I think the only effective solution within China itself will come from the Chinese. We've witnessed growing consciousness among the Chinese people of the abuses in their food processing system, and in their construction business. We've also seen that there is traction to be gained within the Chinese judiciary. Hence, if it is possible to encourage these developments, with advice and the benefits of experience, this is where our efforts and money should be directed. Furthermore, our consumer advocacy organizations, both official and NGO, should be primed to alert the media and the legal system (here and abroad) to target Western AND Chinese companies which seek to corrupt or pervert the ability of the people to redress their grievances through their own courts.