Banjiman - Sorry to go double negative but I probably don't disagree with most of your views.

Of course its a continuum. I take issue primarily with those who deny this - ie. those who see approved floor singers or residents of Guest clubs as superior to those of us very happy with Singers clubs. I take issue with those who see folk as a pecking order which you graduate up as an informal career path; and who deny that Singers Club singers can be any good unless they also do bookings.

The main argument extends to the 'Singers club singers v Guests at Payclubs' arena also. That's because the number of singers and songwriters around Singers clubs that are excellent; and the number of guests doing the rounds who really are not more than adequate.

Lets make it clear that by adequate I mean are able to do a reasonable guest night, give the punters what they expect. I'm not saying there are bad guests. From what my colleague said recently "To be quite honest, (the guest) was no better than most of us": it means most of us could happily do a guest spot also, provided of course we had the song quantity for a normal booked evening.

I see no reason however why any of us should want to join the Guest Club ladder if we're happy singing in a SIngers" Club and happy making albums direct for the public. Climbing up the greasy Guest Club pole is really submitting to a superfluous 'Middle Man'. And middle men normally have biases, favourites and cronies cluttering up the process.

Briefly on support singers and your folk club - you have a very intersting and unusual model. The snag I would suspect is that it's not very flexible.

Tom Bliss - check my wording and you'll find most of what I say is positive and encouraging. This thread was intended to be 100% positive - to let singers know where they can go along and sing without paying. I've no regrets about the debate that has ensued. It's good. Though unexpected, it is excellent and generally well argued.

Criticism of professionals? - of course this could be implied but that is because demening of Singers club singers seems widespread among guest club supporters.

By pointing out that singers from Singers clubs are often just as good as guest circuit singers, the implications are that we are belittling Pros. It's a perception derived from Guest Club supporters being unable to accept that Singers considered bottom in their pecking order can be as good as their professional heroes.

Where I'm simply levelling up; the Old Guard see it as an attempt to level pro singers down. This response to my championing Singers Club singers is actually the negative - and worrying aspect.

Capt Birdseye - quick one... you've got the wrong person!!

Stuart - I'm trying to disect your message. Are you saying I should be over the moon at the chance to be a punter for your guest, be happy with one song; and only have to pay out for a jug collection and bus ticket?

You need to grasp I'm a singer-songwriter more than happy to share my songs with similar singer-songwriters and traditional singers in a relaxed atmosphere. I do not need to be one of a mass of floorsingers queuing for their one song and the chance to see a guest on-the-cheap, however good that guest is. As I said in the thread you picked up my quote from originally: one song - it really isn't worth my while getting my guitar out.

I enjoyed Paul Downs singing when he called into our singarounds a few years back. I also liked hearing Tab Hunter and Ben Paley at their singaround club - also a few years back. These are good environments to enjoy anyones music and share yours. But going somewhere to see a guest without doing two or three songs myself - really isn't my scene.

I have absolutely no folk heroes and go to folk clubs purely to participate and hear others.

I must add I nevetheless respect some on the Pro folk scene such as Paul for the work they've done. There are many unsung heroes too. But implying I should have gone to see Paul because of his contribution to the folk scene actually does Paul a disservice IMHO.


Ian Fyvie