Let me put it this way, Bruce. In the complete absence of goodwill or respect toward those you are debating with, it is impossible to have a useful debate, because an absence of goodwill precludes the chance of any real communication occurring.

It just becomes a case of people shaking their finger and yelling in somebody else's face and (to quote one of Amos's favorite expressions) "waving their arms around". ;-D

I say this not to single you out particularly, BB, but merely as a cautionary remark regarding the entire discussion and whoever is presently engaging in it.