"I didn't say that Israel and Hamas should have the same standards (although, personally, I can't see much difference between them). I said that the rest of the world should hold them to the same standard. I realize this might be a tricky difference for some people to understand, but it is, nevertheless, a very big one." – CarolC

Now in all the to-ing and fro-ing on Hamas and Israeli actions CarolC is perfectly correct in what she says above. What is stated here on this forum doesn't amount to much. The plain fact of the matter is that the rest of the world does not hold the opposing sides in this conflict to the same standard openly and transparently. In discussion of this aspect that is where things get slightly skewed, whereas there is much approbation piled on Israel, the US and the UK, there is none piled on Iran, the old Iraq of Saddam Hussein, Libya in former years and Syria for their unwavering support for terrorist organizations intent on murdering Israeli citizens. There again Israel finds itself at a disadvantage in this as it is a recognized country with an elected government and a member state of the United Nations and is thus very easy to be held accountable. The President of Israel is an internationally known figure as are the Prime Minister, Defence Minister, etc, right the way down the line. Now go and examine the "other side" and everything becomes slightly murky and traceability and accountability goes straight out of the window. It is very difficult to hold secret organizations to account in the same manner as you can hold a democratically elected government to account

Lox also made some points and asked some questions:

"So we agree on two points.

1. Hezbollah and Hamas have no right to target Israeli civilians.

2. Everyone should be accountable to the same set of standards.


So what remains to be discussed?


well the only discussion left is that concerning the Israeli governments policy in Gaza.


Do they have the right to target civilians?"

On point 1 above Lox let's hear massed calls for Hamas to revise its Charter which still to this day calls for the destruction of Israel and the killing of all Jews in what it sees in "Palestine". If the Sheeba Farms is the only bone of contention left between Hezbollah and the Israelis (Hezbollah only fight Israel while Israel occupies Lebanese territory according to Hezbollah) then let's hear calls for that problem to be resolved by discussion, unfortunately the fly in the ointment here is of course that Syria also claim that small lump of land, but I cannot see Hezbollah fighting Syria over it, can you??

On point 2 I totally agree.

The point remaining, the Israeli Governments policy in Gaza, so what is the Israeli Governments policy in Gaza? Were Hamas to stop launching attacks from Gaza by themselves and others based in Gaza the border crossings would be opened. If Hamas and Palestine Authority officially recognize the right of Israel to exist and the rights of the citizens of Israel to live their lives in peace free from threat of attack then Palestinians would stop being targeted and killed. Only trouble is that this approach has never been attempted has it?? Because both sides have not been held accountable to the same standard.

Lox also asks the question: "Do they have the right to target civilians?" The "they" isn't defined, it could refer to the Israeli Government? Or the Israeli Armed Forces? Judging from what went before I take it to mean the Israeli Government. Well the situation facing the Israeli Government isn't as simple as that is it Lox. A fairer, more honest question, would be couched in the following terms if as you say everybody should be held to the same standards; "Does the Israeli Government have the right to target civilians while its own civilians are under attack from firing positions located illegally within centres of civilian population?"

And the answer to that question is yes they do have the right to self defence before all other considerations.

"I also Condemn the Israeli government and army for denying civilians in Gaza the freedom to trade with the outside world," – See above for the political moves that would guarantee the opening of those crossings, another important factor would be that the import of weapons and munitions by Hamas for attacks on Israel would have to stop.


"I also Condemn the Israeli government and army for denying civilians in Gaza the right to urgent medical attention" – The Israelis have never completely shut off medical or humanitarian supplies from Gaza to say that they have is a myth. During the last incursion it was Hamas who prevented Palestinians from accessing medical facilities set up by the Israelis.

"I believe that the Israeli governments stranglehold on basic palestinian human rights in Gaza has created the conditions under which violence has erupted and I am nauseated at the Israeli governments grossly disproportionate reaction to that violence.

That is my opinion."

The people who have always exercised a stranglehold on basic human rights of the "Palestinian" people (Please note Palestinian human rights are no different from anybody else's, even basic Israeli human rights) have been their political overlords who for 60 years have kept the Palestinian people in poverty and despair. Had those "leaders" accepted the UN two state solution offered in 1947 none of this would ever have happened and there would have been no displaced persons and the "Palestinians" would have more than they say they are fighting for now.