re: "John Kanaka"

Let me try to explain where I am coming from. The idea of this sort of thread, besides being simply a "slot" for filing, is to see what happens when we take these songs as a body. What similarities emerge? Are there any common traits one might observe in this sphere of chanteys? And, can we suss out a possible relationship between the various songs that past authors in performers, working with a more limited body of information, may not have noticed?

When I propose that the shanties I mentioned may belong to the same class, I am saying just that -- not that they are variants of the same song. Think more general than "song variants," and more specific than "genre." Call it a sub-type or modality within the repertoire. Remember, the interest is in seeing similarities that help these belong to a group (it stands to reason that chanteys from this area would have certain similarities). That is a bit different from the usual "Describe the hell out of one song in particular and try to find exactly what it is." I view these songs rather fluidly--despite the fact that their latter-day setting in print has petrified them--more like a 12-bar blues for example. Songs in the 12 bar blues form are distinct, yet share a certain feel and shape; many are quite similar if we stretch our ears beyond text. This means that songs will share a certain number of similarities (not necessarily all of them). When I mentioned "John Dameray" (Barry), I said "and maybe even" because it doesn't fit so many characteristics, being a more distant possibility. As for what makes the others similar, if people don't see it, I'd have to take a different, longer :) post to explain it. I will say though that Hugill called "J Kanaka" "closely related to Mobile Bay," and Colcord related "John Cherokee" to "JK"—via Eckstorm. So it's not just me!

I think, and I'm sure many agree, that it is a mistake to over-analyze or put too much weight on text in chanteys. It is too often interchangeable, incidental, or just nonsense. If the song said "John Mandarin, hap ki kong," would we be saying it was a Chinese song? Would some go to fiercely try to de-code "hap ki kong"? Would others argue that "Mandarin" makes no sense in describing the southern Chinese that sailors would have met more often? Or would it be fairly obvious that the chorus was made up based on the slimmest of notions of Chinese culture by Anglo-phone sailors, and that the text itself was not important but rather just fit the format of the work song? How is it that "John Cherokee," an "Injun man from Mirimichi" and a "slave down in Alabam" can be understood as a somewhat nonsense song of the Caribbean/Gulf trade (from Harding of Barbados, and from Bahamas), but "John Kanaka" must be Hawai'ian?

My most liberal viewpoint is that sailors who were outsiders to Polynesian culture (though they may have sailed to Hawaii, etc., as whalers, etc, sure thing) have included the generic character of "John Kanaka" in the same manner as a John Cherokee or John Chinaman. My more conservative view is that the "kanakanaka" (note: never is it /kanaka/) was a variation of nonsense syllables (cf. Eckstorm's rendering "jan kanaganaga") which may have been heard as a mondegreen. Keep in mind that it was only Hugill who has scanned it for us as "Kanaka."

Aside: Was not "Kanaka" a generic term for Polynesian sailors, used by non-Polynesians? Since non-Polynesians are singing the song, they would use it without regard for nationality. Whether it is precisely Hawai'ian is a moot point. Do you really think Hawaiians would be singing about themselves, "Kanakanaka"? I don't say the song is Samoan (I say it probably isn't); it is Hugill that has called it Samoan. He bases that, it seems, just on the "tulai e" – but he never does define (to my knowledge) what that was. In fact, his chastising, "There's no 'R' in the Samoan language" is presumptuous! Does it really make a difference whether it related to a Hawaiian, Samoan or Maori?

When Hugill published SfSS in 1961, I don't think he had any idea what trajectory these songs would take in the Revival. "John Kanaka," it seems, became sort of a "pet" song for him. Audiences love to get the little spiel in the beginning about what "Kanaka" means. Plus, Hugill used it to show off his yodel.

SfSS, while not always the most rigorous, has a general "scholarship" tone. Hugill included and weighed any and all information he could dig up about each song. He was not afraid to say, "I know X as a capstan chantey, but I have found a reference for its use at halyards." By the next book (1969), the tone had switched to a popular one. In that framework, he had to make very concise and positive (really, falsely positive!) statements. He would have to say "X is a capstan chantey." Period. He'd have selected his favorite and most interesting interpretation of facts to present to the readers. Compare: In SfSS, re: "JK", he only postulates the idea of chanteys based in Hawai'ian songs. He says that if they did exist, "they have all been lost—unless our John Kanaka is the one survivor." In other words, he presents the idea as complete speculation.

Between that time and the next, popular-audience book, Hugill had become part of the Revival. He'd recorded "JK." The story had no doubt developed. Q's quotation:
"This halyard song is the only known representative of a sizable group of Anglicized Polynesian work-songs popular at one time among seamen in the various Pacific Islands trades." (His later book, "Shanties and Sailors' Songs").
He goes on to say that this chantey became widespread "in most American sailing ships of the mid-nineteenth century."

Can we not see that this is B.S.? He jumped from imagining (1961) that there might be such songs and, if there were, "J Kanaka" might be one, to positively saying that there definitely were a "sizeable" amount and this was the "last"! And to echo Lighter, how in the world would he suddenly know it was widespread in the 19th century? How would that even make sense if, to his knowledge, he was the only person to collect it (i.e. it was rare)?

Barry,
"John Cherokee" & "John Dameray" do not fit the mold you discribe as a "3 solo phrase". Of the 3 left that you mention Hugill does not say where his sourse of his printed version comes from"

Meaning the song "Mobile Bay"

Harding's version of "John Cherokee" has the 3 solo phrase format. The popular version that has gone around seems to be based in Robiinson's text via Colcord, which repeats the characteristic "way hey" phrase. Singers have done this to "regularize" chanteys. Incidentally, I was hoping, soon, to seek the expertise and experience of you and others about "John Cherokee"'s trajectory in the revival. We really can't systematically compare "Cherokee" to others in this mix using the Revival version that people now usually sing.

"Mobile Bay," as you say, is not cited in SfSS. Hugill does mention Slade's recording which, as Lighter posits, may have been based in the Davis & Tozer text. I don't know what that text says about it, but Harlow (see earlier post) does say "Mobile Bay" is West Indian, and Colcord got it from a "Negro." Besides, the chantey is about Mobile Bay. The geographic-culture "sphere" that I envision, as I've tried to correct myself now and again in this thread (then lapsing back to shorthand!) is inclusive of the Gulf of Mexico (southern U.S. states) on down through the Caribbean, mainly inclusive of Black singers. Sorry if that is confusing.

Q,

And absolutely no evidence that 'John Kanaka' stems from the Caribbean.

What sort of evidence would you require to say that any sea song stems from the Caribbean (or anywhere else)? (*And again, by the shorthand "Caribbean" I meant to include the wider Black maritime world of the Gulf down to the top of South America.) I am not in the business of ascribing precise "origins" to traditional songs, but rather to see what something most resembles. And in this case, by way of non-textual features, I think "JK" comes closest to the Black-Caribbean/Gulf style of chantey. Certainly that style, once established as a paradigm (such as 12-bar blues) had been carried to some other parts of the world. A sailor like Harding may have been lying on the beach in Lahaina and, inspired by his new friends and the fun sound of the word "Kanaka," included it in his new song. But that song would nonetheless be built on a paradigm of his style of chanteying. How else do you explain "Mobile Bay"? Did the cotton hoosiers get it from a Hawai'ian song?

Thanks for the great discussion, guys.

Gibb