"If you and others like you had their way Don, this thread would not exist, I would have been intimidated by the language you and others used to me very early on."

As far as not wanting this thread to exist, Ake, I'm quite glad that Amos brought the Proposition 8 controversy to people's attention. I don't know where you get the idea that I "and others like" me, wouldn't want it to exist. The injustice of the issue needs to be called to peoples' attention and I'm happy that Amos started it.

As to your claim that I "and others like" me are trying to muzzle you: it's obvious to any thinking person (as you well know) that I "and others like" me have no way of doing that. No one save the moderators of this site can stop you from posting anything you want to say. So why don't you just get off that bus? You're not fooling anyone.

And as I mention in a couple of posts above, I have found some of your arguments quite valuable, because the battle is joined here in Washington State, and you gave me a pretty good idea of the kind of arguments the proponents of a proposition similar to the one in California will put forth, enabling me to analyze them, find their flaws, and be able to successfully refute them. Muzzle you? No. Thank you for the practice. I'm well prepared for what's to come.

As far as the language I have used, if you can't stand being called a "bigot" and a "homophobe" when things you have said and the tactics you have used (particularly doctoring statistics to make them appear to say what you want them to say when they clearly do not) indicate that you fit the dictionary definitions of those two words, then you apparently lack the courage of your own convictions, along with having a very thin skin.

Orwell has nothing to do with it. Rather than engaging in "doublespeak" as you claim, I am bluntly using the proper name for a person who holds a particular set of attitudes and prejudices. I have expressed liberal ideas. You have "accused" me of being a "liberal." Same thing, Ake.

"As it is, the issues have been aired and the discussion is in stalemate.   The important thing is that all views have been voiced and anyone reading this thread can form a reasoned opinion."

True indeed. There is no way I can convince you of my viewpoint and there is no way you can ever get me to change my mind if all you can do is present the arguments that you have presented so far. I am happy to have anyone read this thread who wants to and let them come to their own conclusions on the merits, or lack thereof, of the arguments.

Not to mention, hoping that readers will take note of who is and who is not willing to answer various questions put to them and figure out why the questions remain unanswered.

Don Firth