Bonnie and Jim, I don't mean to downplay the guilt of the Church, the priests and nuns who committed crimes of molestation or abuse, or the bishops and other administrators who covered up these crimes. I've said that more than once. Caitlin rua said "People in Ireland didn't question the Church." I can accept that as true, because that was more-or-less the case when I was growing up Catholic in the United States in the 1950s - but I never knew of a case where a priest or nun abused or molested a child, or did anything else seriously wrong.

And when someone in authority does something wrong, a tradition of never questioning authority seems like a pretty lame excuse for failing to challenge an injustice.

Now, Bonnie Shaljean and Jim Carroll describe an Ireland that sounds like a concentration camp, where every movement was monitored and controlled by a watchful Church. I would like to note that Bonnie and Jim have both been in Ireland for somewhat under twenty years - so I wonder if they actually were witness to the controlled society they describe. I also question whether Bonnie and Jim ever participated in Catholic parish life in Ireland, and I wonder if either one has ever actually suffered under the rule of the Church that they consider oppressive. I wonder what it is that they have actually witnessed themselves. It is my perception that their perception of the problem is distorted, although there was undeniably a real and extremely serious problem.

I've been very concerned about this matter since the Ryan Report was first discussed here in May, I've taken the time to read the report. The Sacramento area has dozens of diocesan priests and Sisters of Mercy who came to Sacramento from Ireland - the last arrived here about 1975, so these are people who grew up in Ireland during the period from 1950-65. I've seen it contended above that it was mostly middle-class people who became priests and nuns, but most of the Irish priests and nuns I know came from working-class families from all over Ireland. I asked several about the Ryan Report and about the conditions they lived under while growing up. They said that the schools, both Catholic and national schools, were strict and did practice corporal punishment, but that actual abuse was uncommon and not the rule. They found their Catholic parish churches to be a center of social life, and their experiences in their parishes were mostly positive.

The impression I get from my friends is that while Ireland was impoverished at the time, they had reasonably enjoyable lives as children. One priest, a farmer's son, grew up in County Clare, not far from Frank McCourt's Limerick. He said that McCourt was thought of as a "whiner" by people from County Clare, and my friend said that life for most kids was nowhere near as bad as what McCourt described.

So, my question is mostly one of proportion. I'm sure that there were poor children in Ireland, and that life was tough for many of them. But how many lived lives in fear of constant abuse? Some did - there's no doubt about that. And that is a horrible scandal that can never been forgiven.

So, where's the reality in all this? Where's the proportion? And I ask again - who is supposed to pay the cost of all this? In the United States, it is the current generation of Catholics who are paying the bill, and most of them were children at the time the offenses took place. I have to imagine the same will be true in Ireland - that the current generation of Catholics will pay for the offenses committed by people who are dead or near dead.

Another question I need to ask: what period of time are we talking about here? It is my impression that the worst cases of abuse took place before 1970, almost forty years ago - although the Ryan Report says some happened as late as the 1980s. It seems to me that a lot of the people who committed these crimes must be dead or at least old and feeble. So, who is there to punish for these crimes?

It is indeed a huge and terrible scandal - but it is my impression that the vast majority of Irish children did not suffer abuse or molestation, and that the vast majority of Irish Catholic priests and nuns did not commit crimes of abuse or molestation. Therefore, it seems to me that an overall condemnation of the Church is unwarranted. Rather than a hysterical "buckshot" attack on all things Catholic, there needs to be an honest, soul-searching review of the entire problem.

Jim and Bonnie, I think you have both taken anecdotal evidence and broadened it to support a sweeping and unfair condemnation. I think you both need a more proportional and realistic and rational perspective. Take a look at the Ryan Report. It takes a rational, balanced, realistic approach to the problem. It brings out the hard, horrible facts of this era of abuse, but it doesn't cloud the facts with unrealistic, sweeping condemnations.

-Joe Offer-