I must admit, I have not waded through every post on this thread.

In general, I would say that in case of rape, the guy is responsible for his actions no matter what his excuses might be.

But—back when I was at university, I knew a guy named Jack, who was a notorious womanizer. He would proposition every halfway good-looking woman he ever met. Including (and I saw this) a woman he had never seen before who just happened to be standing in line with him at the cash register waiting to pay her check. He was asked once, "Don't you get slapped a lot?" To which he responded, "Oh, yeah! But I get laid a lot, too!" He claimed that about one in twenty of the women he propositioned said "Okay."

This is by way of establishing that Jack was just bloody notorious! Everybody around the University District knew him and knew his reputation.

Including Tony (a girl).

Tony, more than just incidentally, happened to let it be known to all and sundry, that she was a virgin—and that she was not particularly happy with that state. Had I not been going with a wonderful young woman at the time (who, incidentally, was largely responsible for introducing me to folk music—she sang and was teaching herself to play the guitar and inspired me to do likewise), I might have been quite willing to help Tony with her little problem.

Tony knew all about Jack.

One Monday afternoon, while sitting in a U. District restaurant between classes, Tony came in and joined me at my table. She told me that Saturday night, Jack had raped her. She was quite fuzzy about the details, but she did say that she had been out on a date with him Saturday night and late in the evening, he had forced himself on her.

My immediate reaction was two-fold:    anger at Jack, 'cause the sonofabitch was nothing but a drooling satyr and he seemed to regard women as being as usable and dispensable as Kleenex;   and the thought that with what Tony knew about Jack, to agree to go out with him in the first place was just bloody stupid unless she wanted to get laid.

She spread the word to quite a number of people that Jack had raped her. She did not, however, want to go to the police, as many advised her to do. Three guys who didn't like Jack very much, went up to his apartment with the idea of a) beating the crap out of him, and b) inducing him to get the hell out of the University area and leave the women alone. Jack talked fast and what he said and what he suggested (talk to the couple that he and Tony had double-dated with) saved him a beating.

Further investigation turned up that Jack and Tony had been on a double date with another couple. The other guy, who was driving, said that, at the end of the evening as he was driving people around and dropping them off, Jack and Tony were all over each other in the back seat, that Tony's blouse was open and her bra unhooked, and her skirt was up around her waste—and that there was considerable mutual groping and fondling going on. A bit embarrassing to he and his date. He heard Jack ask Tony if she wanted to come up to his apartment and she panted, "Yes!"

Also, Jack told the committee that had gone to rough him up that Tony had, at no time, indicated that she didn't want to "do it." He said, "If she had said 'No,' I would have stopped and she could have left. I don't need to rape girls! There are enough around who are perfectly willing!"

I didn't like Jack. Not many guys did. Nor did all that may of the women I knew. But in the light of what I did know about him, and in the light of what I knew about Tony and the way she came on, I have serious doubts about the "rape" thing.

I think Tony just wanted to announce her new status to the world and garner a bit of sympathy, as if the loss of her virginity was not her fault.

Don Firth

P. S.   This incident may not even be relevant to this thread, because I don't think genuine rape was actually involved.