steve-you not bitching each other?was that a serious assertion?you and josep oct 6 just to start with.i suppose you could say it was,nt bitching but sure looks like it to me.i shall take it as just another assertion-just depends on how you interprete the data i suppose.same applies to beginnings!.no doubt it is too simple for you but it would seem creation demands a creater and despite widespread acceptance of evolution ,creationism is not everywhere accepted as fact ,and that due to scientific arguments ,despite your denials.it seems you know more about me personally than i know myself and i suspect that carries over to your science.if you can make assuptions about me beyond the evidence,why not on evolution on which you are, i think more zealous.stringsinger-you may wish for an atheist state but for many people theological reasons are not irrelivant.just to clarify-are you claiming no unborn feels the pain of being ripped out the womb or just very early stage,and is this from all experts or just some.thanks