mm A few interesting posts since I last looked in, and a reply from Joe O. to my earlier points.

Also interesting to note that Eliza reckons this has been a grown up debate rather than from the nursery. I suppose Joe's original post was to invite honest debate rather than crucifixes at ten paces.

However.....

There is a whiff of people not happy that they are being judged by association. if you are a member of a religion, you don't like to be seen in terms of the more odious fringe of that particular cult. i can see your point, really can. I am an ex miner, a football fan and drive round in a flash car c/w Oakley shades covering my ugly mush. All these invite stereotyping, and I don't personally identify with being a pit moggy, hooligan or yuppie. I do accept though that people may sometimes judge me as such and (hopefully) be pleasantly pleased when I behave in polite company.

Same with religion. I am (I have said before) somewhat jealous of people who can, through ignorance or deep thought, believe that there is a dude with a big white beard looking out for them. I don't have that and have no more than the big zero to look forward to.

But... Most people with religious conviction seem, (to me at any rate) to be very precious about their belief and have problems with other people dismissing their viewpoint. Many wish that we all shared their belief, as of course, their teaching is that the God dude exists therefore he affects you whether you believe in him or not.

That is unfair if you ask me. He only affects me in that

1. My wife's mother and brother think I am evil because their daughter no longer goes to church.

2. Certain products cannot be purchased at certain times on a Sunday.

Neither are positive effects, so no wonder I reject the idea of religion having more influence. I donated to the secular society recently, not because I want to join a crusade as such, but to help in their quest to ensure the upcoming census reflects the overwhelming apathy that the bishops construe as being active Christian, and strengthen their role in society.

Anyway, if I hear anybody being labelled as "pious" I can't help thinking they mean "sanctimonious"

If you want to know about the TRUE belief, read up on we pastafarians. I don't know what we are supposed to believe, but I joined the church anyway so I could put it on forms that ask for religion. If you do read up, can you tell me what I am supposed to believe?