The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #34080   Message #3127789
Posted By: Gibb Sahib
03-Apr-11 - 02:58 PM
Thread Name: Origins: Blood Red Roses (what's it mean?)
Subject: RE: Origins: Blood Red Roses (what's it mean?)
Here's a bio for Elder, who was born and raised in Tobago. He would have been 15-16 when the version of "Comin' Dung" that he gives was heard.

http://www.culturalequity.org/alanlomax/ce_alanlomax_profile_elder.php

The recording made in 1962 in Trindad by Lomax, with Elder's help, can be heard here (there are two excerpts):

http://research.culturalequity.org/get-audio-ix.do?ix=recording&id=11122&idType=

For comparison, one can see the MacLagan 1901 source that Elder cited in suggesting the game-song was from Scotland. One must scroll down to pp61-62:

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=ikmvAAAAIAAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA1&dq=games+a

The songs really aren't very similar at all. Elsewhere in his book, Elder states his belief that a number of Trini game-songs descended from English ones. This sounds reasonable because they are, after all, in English language. It's not unreasonable to suspect that this "Bonny Bunch o' Roses" game was an ancestor to the song, however, by the 20th century the Trini one would have to be recognized as a different song. The chanty is related to the Caribbean song, not the Scottish one.