Steve Shaw

If you encourage beginners to learn tunes from a book, of course you're encouraging them to fast-track. Why else would you do it?

In some cases, to make it possible at all. Learning by ear is not a universal skill and people have it to different degrees. I have heard that there is an orchestral piece that only exists because Mozart, at the age of about 13, heard it at a concert then went home and wrote it down from memory. Can you do that? You are fortunate to have some skill along that spectrum. Don't begrudge access to the music to those that don't.

The only "advantage" (utterly misguided to see it that way, of course) to learning tunes from books over listening to people playing is that you can learn a lot of tunes more quickly.

Steve, I have said repeatedly said, and so have others, that learning from books has to be done along with listening to the music and playing with others. It is not one or the other.

It panders to that enthusiasm that then gets degraded into the impatience to get in there and get playing and get the free pints. "Learn" used there advisedly, of course.

Heaven forfend that anyone should show any enthusiasm for playing music. I don't know about you, Steve, but I play for the love of the music and the joy of playing music with other people not the free pints.

As for my "failure", well you wonder why I treat you with the disdain you so richly deserve when you say stupid bloody things like that.

Previously: Learning from books taught me entirely the wrong message, that there is a correct version and that you should pontificate about it should you come up against someone not playing it Mally's way. And it taught me precisely zilch about active listening as I learned, the need for flexibility, the subtleties of rhythm and how to vary and ornament tunes.

Sounds like failure to me. I wear your disdain with pride.

As for telling me I need to listen and play with other people, well why don't you go and tell your granny how to suck eggs too.

I said no such thing. As above, I said that, if you are learning from the dots, you need to listen and play with other people as well. Is the message getting through yet? It is very evident from your account of your own attempts to learn from tune books and your use of lines like "learning tunes from books over listening to people playing" that you did try and learn that way in isolation. You had unrealistic expectations of what the written note could do for you. I am glad you have found a way that suits you but presumably you couldn't learn by ear to start with otherwise you wouldn't have bothered with the tune books. Could it be that reading from the dots was part of the path to your present skills? I certainly know that my ear learning has improved over the years but without the dots, I would never have got started.