and i have to say i find it almost impossible to trust and fucking bastard who was ever a tory, of any kind.they bring their biases with them when they come to the left. they do it with subtlety so that often they are unaware they are doing it but when the chips are down they will stab you in the back as hard as they ever did from the front when they were tories.

i alway say anyone is welcome to join, but if you come from the right you're not fit to lead and should shut up and listen for about thirty years before you opine.

i see this as the problem with blairs labour party and candas ndp. we have social democrats who don't have any personal expierence with how life destroying these battles can be, and so they will engage in the same life destroying behavior as a"temporary " measure to achieve a short term objectives. they forget that the peoples whose lives are destroyed don't have a long term benefit. the comfortable middle class socialite socialists lose nothing and have no idea the human cost of their decisions.

well thats my depressing thoughts tonight. untill the eighties i thought we were making progress, too bad it was a mirage