I take that point entirely. I suppose that Joe would admit that the analysis was slightly loose and that I was nit-picking to take him up on it, yet I think it's still valid because there's a flip side: I think I mentioned some time ago about going to the funeral of a fiend who hadn't been near a church in decades (except, like a lot of us, for funerals and weddings), yet the preacher declared that his goodness was a direct product of his Christianity. There are many things that atheists do worse that believers (we're a bit rubbish when it comes to engendering community spirit, for example), but I'm not having it that the human race has to have religion in order to be good. So that sort of claim, the one about my friend, is very likely to blow back in religion's face when things go pear-shaped apropos of abuse. And deservedly so in my opinion.