Good points Steve Shaw.

Joe O:
What is unfortunate is the reaction of many "practicing" RC's to legitimate criticism, some of which RC s tend to agree with,at least to some degree.

Rather than participating in a dialogue and considering different viewpoints, the tendancy of many Rc s is to "circling the wagons", turning outwards and ignoring or vilanize those with constructive ideas,which while they may differ from theirs, are no less logical. A more positive approach would be to openly consider genuine concern for the future plight of the RC church and ideas for change.

What you see is negativity. What I see are victims,former RC's and other Christians wanting a more open, accountable, caring and safe RC church, not the end of the church. Would that also not be the same goal for those who care for the future of the church from the inside?
I do not see people calling for the end of the RC church, but an end of practices they see as hurtful to persons and society and many that they see as uncaring and even "unchristian".

If the RC church ended tomorrow, it would be a sad thing for the many people in society who hold it close to their hearts. IMO, it would also be a sad thing for society in general. But, it is also a sad thing if in today's enlightened society this organization cannot make changes that a child could see as needed.

It is honourable to "stay the course" and try to make change from inside. But,I see no reason why it is less honourable to depart from an organization, one that you have lost trust in, and try to impact change from the outside, as many victims and concerned folks have chosen to do. Do I detect a degree of disdain for those who have chosen to leave?

My last comment is your frequent reference to your experience in the RC church. Joe, you should re-read some of your comments through the lens of a person who holds a different perspective on some related issues. Your experience is just that and does not necessarily reflect what is happening around the world with the RC church. (I am puzzled that you downplay the experiences of others in the RC church as "non-representative" at the same time as you promote your experience as "representative").I will not accuse this approach as being intentionally condescending, as I observe you to be above that word.