"I answered your questions- whether you like the answers is not my problem."
No you didn't Bruce - you made a couple of statements, you were challenged and yo, as you have done every time, did a runner - that is not an answer.
What Don did or did not say (taken out of context by you) is between you and Don, he's more than capable of speaking for himself. - take it up with him and don't hide behind other people's statements - you have mine.
"YOU LOSE."
This is not about winning or losing, not with most of us here anyway.
It's a sick game with you; making up and twisting and turning arguments to win some sort of prize - it's no more than an ego-trip for you.
You've had responses to your claims dozens of times from me and from others - you can't bother reading them.
Meanwhile - back to the reality (please note the constant reference to the presence of Israeli vehicles on the scene - perhaps their headlights were used for the massacre - it was in line with the way Israelis behaved hear.)
The idea of headlights" and "torches" being used is a grotesque nonsense- THERE HAS NEVER BEEN ANY DISPUTE THAT THE ISRAELIS LIT THE SITE UP LIKE A CHRISTMAS TREE - EVEN THEY DIDN'T DENY THAT
And once again, thanks for the opportunity to present yet more evidence.
Jim Carroll


From Kapeliouk
"The carnage began immediately. It lasted forty hours without interruption. The Israelis were able to observe the operations from the roof (seventh floor) of the three Lebanese buildings they had occupied since September 3. They were equipped with telescopes and binoculars with night-vision. In reality, they did not need this equipment because they were only 200 meters away from the major location of the carnage. During these two days, the building swarmed with officers. There was an endless flow of traffic in and out; vehicles of the signal corps, armored vehicles and different units all around. To quote one Israeli officer, watching from the roof of these buildings was like watching "from the front row of a theater.""

"At the same time, pictures depicting scenes from the camps were portrayed on television screens throughout the world. American journalist George Will, notorious for his relentless support of Israel, described the massacre as the ''Babi Yar" of Israel. He wrote: ''Palestinians have now had their Babi Yar, their Lidice. The Beirut massacre has altered the moral algebra of the Middle East, producing a new symmetry of suffering"[6] (Washington Post, September 23, 1982).
American Jews interviewed by an Israeli television correspondent stated that they were ashamed of being Jewish at such times. The Jewish Chronicle, official organ of the Jewish community in England, wrote: "After the 'mopping up' of camps in Beirut, it is Israel that should now be cleaned of all those who authorized or were implicated in this horror which brought shame to us all."

And from the Israeli press – the aftermath of the massacre:
"WAR CRIME IN BEIRUT"
Units of the Lebanese Army established a "security belt" around the two camps using 1500 soldiers supported by 40 armored vehicles. The deployment of Lebanese troops continued throughout the night. By Monday morning, there were no signs of Israeli soldiers.
Inside the camps, the smell of death grew stronger as new corpses were uncovered. At the entrance of Shatila, more than 100 bodies were still lined on the ground near two mass graves. Many bodies were already in a state of decomposition making it impossible to identify the victims. The corpses were lowered inside these massive holes and covered with quicklime. The burials, which started the day before, continued for several days.
Oblivious to the rescue teams, survivors of the camps continued to wander aimlessly hoping to locate a missing parent or a precious possession. An elderly man, accompanied by a woman and two children, searched in the rubble of their home in Shatila. Their cries deafened nearby rescue workers. However, none of the workers dared to speak to them. Further down, a young man returned to locate his brother's remains. He uncovered another corpse behind every wall. Three young people sitting next to a demolished hut whispered to each other. One of them told an approaching journalist: "We will never again rely on the promises of others. We will never again entrust others with our destiny and security. We will take care of ourselves by ourselves."
Camp residents were still traumatized by the forty hours of carnage they lived through. In the morning, two trucks arrived loaded with Lebanese soldiers dressed in bright green uniforms, in contrast to the dark green worn by the other soldiers stationed in the camps. The residents were struck with horror as rumors spread that "Haddad's militiamen are back." Hundreds of panic-stricken residents stampeded northward. They did not return to the camp until the afternoon when they received assurances from the Lebanese authorities.
In West Beirut, Israeli withdrawal from the center of the city to the periphery became evident as early as Monday morning. Nine days later, on September 29, the Israelis, UNDER STRONG AMERICAN PRESSURE, had completed their total withdrawal from Beirut including the airport. They were replaced by troops from the Multinational Force. Meanwhile, the Israelis continued to search for arms and munition depots. They went through the neighborhoods with bullhorns, asking the residents to surrender their weapons. Israeli officers driving military vehicles or even civilian cars with Israeli license plates, dashed through the streets of Beirut with name-lists in their hands. Often accompanied by local informers, they would slowly drive back and forth past the headquarters, press offices or residences of leftist Lebanese leaders who sympathized with the Palestinian cause. Frequently, they would stop and ask whether so-and-so was inside. If the person they sought was not there, they would make an appointment to pick him up an hour later. Blindfolded civilians with their hands tied behind their backs were seen being transported in Israeli vehicles. No one knows the exact number of Lebanese and Palestinians arrested by the Israelis in Beirut. Their present legal status and whereabouts are also unknown. The Lebanese press estimates the number of detainees at 1000-1500.
Israeli soldiers continued to plunder the well-equipped library of the Palestine Research Center of the P.L.O. in West Beirut. All materials, books and documents were loaded indiscriminately aboard trucks chartered for this task. A jeep and a tank covered this operation. When questioned by a Lebanese journalist, the Israeli officer in charge of the "moving operation" responded that his soldiers were taking "everything I find useful." He added: "We are the 'People of the Book,' and we have great respect for books." When the journalist reminded him that this was a research center, the Israeli officer retorted: "It is a center of espionage. There are no Palestinian intellectuals, only spies. The evidence we found includes biographies of Israeli officers."[7]
Daily life in West Beirut became increasingly precarious. Food supplies had not been replenished for five days, the city was without electric power and the water supply was diminishing. Furthermore, the scarcity of fuel oil threatened to close the last functioning major hospital in the city -the American Hospital.
In Israel, newspapers appeared for the first time since the massacre was announced. A front-page headline in Ha'aretz read: "War Crime in Beirut." Its military correspondent, Ze'ev Schiff, started his article with these words:

A war crime has been committed in the refugee camps of Beirut. The Phalangists have killed hundreds, if not more, of elderly people, women and children, exactly in the same fashion pogroms were carried out against Jews. It is not true, as claimed by official spokesmen that we didn't learn of this crime until Saturday at noon after receiving reports filed by foreign correspondents stationed in Beirut. I personally heard about it on Friday morning. I brought all my information to the attention of a senior official who took immediate action. In other words, the massacre began Thursday evening, and what I learned on Friday morning was certainly known to others before me.

On its editorial page, the same paper wrote:

The circumstances under which the horrible deed was carried out inevitably clarified Israel's responsibility indirect or direct, for the death of hundreds of helpless people. ... Even if Israel cannot clean the stain of Sabra and Shatila, it is its duty to show -first to itself and then to the rest of the world- that it is taking itself to task because of this terrible event that has taken place within the realm of its responsibility. The removal from office of General Eitan and Mr. Sharon is a first and necessary precondition for us to be able to look ourselves and the world straight in the eyes again. (Ha'aretz, September 21, 1982).

Under the headline: "The Shame of Beirut," the Labor daily, Davar, wrote: "It is difficult to be an Israeli ... We shall not be able to absolve ourselves of this stain. What has been perpetrated by those who carried out the Deir Yassin massacre, the commander of the Qibya raid and the one who commuted Daniel Pinto's sentence,[8] defames the entire nation today." Hanna Zemer, editor-in-chief of Davar, referred to the "villainous government which dragged the State of Israel into moral bankruptcy." She added: "If the government forces the army to stay in Beirut and continues to assign it the role of gendarme in this region of the world, we won't surrender our reservist cards, but the day will come soon when we shall surrender our identity cards because this is not our identity."
Al-Hamishmar, the voice of MAPAM (United Workers Party), wrote: "This slaughter has made the war in Lebanon the greatest disaster to befall the Jewish people since the holocaust." Even the evening newspapers which are generally favorable to Begin's policy on relations with the Arabs did not try to avoid responsibility. Both Yedi'ot Aharonot and Ma'ariv thought that Israel shared some indirect blame for the massacre.
The right wing political parties were quite embarrassed. A number of their leaders were quoted saying: "It is better not to discuss the situation because it is harmful to Israel." Others, as if trying to vindicate themselves, declared: "It is not, however, the first time a massacre has occurred in the Middle East!" Nevertheless, these reactions did not succeed in containing the indignation of many diverse elements. The press published on Saturday, and in subsequent issues, articles and statements of unparalleled intensity. Israel Zamir, the son of Nobel Prize-winner Isaac Bashevis-Singer, wrote: "Until this day, the word 'pogrom' had a connotation which directly concerned us, Jews, as victims. Prime Minister Begin has 'extended' the scope of the term: there was Babi-Yar, Lidice, Oradour, and now there is Sabra and Shatila."