Barbara, I really enjoyed the Cucurbit Song, Thanks. to all who say that political change can not be achieved, read Barbara's thread, then reflect on this... the Gay/Lesbian movement is maybe the most persecuted group of people in our time, yet they are able to put thousands of people into the streets, and into the voting booths, and have become a constituancy that is courted, by both all political parties(some more honestly than others) That is what works to shape political thought. The traditional power bases, Labor, Women, Blacks have to some degree bewen co-opted into a party that no longer reflects the same interest that it did many years ago. Most people don't vote. I keep hammering away because of my faith in people, and a knowledge that if some right wing nutcase ignites a "cause" within the 80% of the folks that aren't voting now, we'll all be listening to marshall music, and not talking about courage. Are there utopian models? I suspect all of the vanguard party types, they haven't built anything bigger than some small debate groups. And I suspect that the struggle for most of us will go on, whether there is a good government, or bad in place, because our love of people will never allow us to be satisfied, entirely.