"And I have no idea where you got your fairy tale about "coffin ships", but the name came from the deplorable conditions that resulted in high mortality" - sciencegeek - 19 Mar 14 - 01:05 PM

The term "coffin ship" was in use long before 1847 and had nothing whatsoever to do with "deplorable conditions that resulted in high mortality" - That the term was hijacked does not surprise me in the least - but at least have the honesty to recognise it for what it is.

In your first example the "Virginius" why did you omit to mention that among those who died on the voyage were the vessel's Master, First and Second Mates and damn near the entire crew, (I take it they must have been sharing the same deplorable conditions), and the loss of the bulk of the ship's crew must have affected her performance under sail with only one officer, a couple of men and one boy left to handle her – a bit selective of you isn't it sciencegeek (Go back and read that historical check list for the US's legal standard for "historians" –you will find out that you do not match up)

Now then Christmas:   
"You have had the facts on immigration" – No idea how many people entered Ireland during the famine years as immigrants Christmas – perhaps all these evil Brits wishing to cash in on this economic and political bonanza you keep prattling on about, but seem unable to provide any evidence of ever having occurred. We do however know the numbers of Irishmen, women and children who emigrated from Ireland and entered mainland Britain, Canada and the United States of America.

"You have had the facts on Britain's solution" - Yes repeal the laws that kept the price of crops artificially high and allow the cheap import of cereals, setting up of a means of distributing relief. When that failed due to the scale of the problem they put in place measures to move people off the land whether to towns and cities in Ireland, or on mainland Britain, or by emigration to Canada or the United States of America. With the exception of Belfast, Ireland generally had never undergone either an agrarian revolution or an industrial revolution as mainland Britain had. Therefore work opportunities in the major centres of population in Ireland, apart from Belfast, were minimal, so most left Ireland for mainland Britain. The measures obviously worked because subsequent to the famine of 1845 to 1851 while rare periodic periods occurred in which there were food shortages, there was never another famine in Ireland (Or Scotland for that matter). Doesn't alter the fact that during the period in question Britain paid for 750,000 people working on relief projects and fed 3 million - weird sort of "genocide" don't you think?

"You have had the facts on the conditions on the coffin ships" - Yes standard practice at the time for transporting people on ships that were essentially cargo vessels. Oh and for all your heart rending examples, designed and repeated time and time again to appeal to the furthering of this emotive claptrap and myth the following can be seen - "that first year of shipping (1847) particularly to the mouth of Saint Lawrence was untypical and that mortality on ships across the Atlantic was less than 5 per cent. Less actually than German emigrants migrating to North America in the same time period." – Professor Liam Kennedy of Queens College quoting Professor Joel Mokyr Were those Germans all part of the same diabolical British plot then Christmas?? Read some accounts and they speak of how healthy and happy the German emigrants were, but the figures tell a different story according to Joel Mokyr. Your Mr Laxton, gave the figure that five thousand trips were made across the Atlantic with Irish emigrants during the six years of the Famine Emigration And your Mr. Terry Coleman mentions that the total number of emigrant ships that were lost making the trans-Atlantic crossing amounted to 59 – So just over 1% of the ships foundered – Take a look at the statistics for Cape Horn they make that 1% loss rate look good going for the vessels of the period and the times. The purpose built ships for the passage of emigrants (Such as the "City of Adelaide" that carried emigrants to Australia) generally post date the period under discussion.

"You have had a summing up of post famine history" - Your "victims version" fueled by illogical, fictionalized, emotive claptrap, or fact? In 1879 the crop failed in Ireland, this caused hunger and there were food shortages, but not the death toll – why? Because of changes in the technology of food production, primarily enabled by the disappearance of the tiny subdivided plots of land. The disappearance of the cotter tenant ("i.e. those who left the land during the famine we are discussing), in short the land could be farmed a damn sited more efficiently. Post famine history also tells us that post 1840s in Ireland a railroad system was built that allowed food to be transported to the west of Ireland in days rather than months. The phenomenon of those emigrating post 1845-1851 famine came about simply by those people exercising their own free will or as a result of panic as was seen in 1879 – It most certainly did not come about by any deliberate plan instigated by any British Government as you contend.

One of your post famine songs about emigration puts it beautifully - written by Liam Reilly IIRC - Flight of Earls

It's not murder fear or famine
that makes us leave this time
We're not going to join McAlpine's Fusiliers
We've got brains and we've vision
We've got education too
And we just can't throw away these precious years"

The song was written about the state of affairs in Ireland in 1981/82 and the reason they left was because there was no work for them to do pure and simple - so in an Ireland that had been completely independent for 60 years it was still Britain's fault? Just how pathetic do you wish to paint yourselves?

Erie Canal Greg F? The topic was introduced by sciencegeek who mentioned it's construction NOT it's future modifications – I merely pointed out to him who actually was involved in its original construction.