stu, I am certainly not here to wind anyone up. if any winding up is being done, I venture that this what some others are doing, or trying to. to some extent you are right that I am arguing from ignorance, but even were I to start studying peer reviewed papers I would probably always be below yours and robs education in your respective disciplines. that is why I must resort to the experts to substantiate even my non technical arguments. I must admit that it is nice to be able to quote evolutionist scientists as well as creationists to that end.