You are really "crankin" on this thread Dan. The history of the Irish Brigade is well worth the retelling and shows that things can be worth it, it just depends on the "things."

I'd also like to change the thought process a bit as some of us looked at the situation then and other situations too, not as something worth dying for, but was and is it something worth killing for? That was at the heart of my thinking then and still remains so today. I am not necessarily a pacifist, though I admire many. However, if you have a gun and I have a gun and we're stalking each other, rest assured I am going to do my damndest to kill you first. This is what young people are asked to do in any war. I came to the belief that there was nothing worth killing for about VietNam. Others came to a similar realization after they were there and hence the abundant cases of post traumatic stress. Others wars are different and each one must be decided by the people involved.....Is it worth killing for? If you are going to put me in the situation of killing someone else before they kill me, you better have a damn good reason so I can live with myself afterwards.

When I refused to play and was arrested, the sentences were running at 5 years, out in about 3. By the time I was sentenced, it was down to 3 years and out in 18 months. After serving 7 months at Petersburg, it was reduced to 15 months and out in 6, so I was paroled. A short time later, they were down to a year and out in 3-6 months. We were a pain in the ass to the government! But if more had done it, could they have withstood the pain? THIS is why I have a problem with those who left.

NIGHT WING and others..........The play Jeri refers to is one we have bantered about for quite awhile. You don't need any made up characters, the words and the people are right here at the 'Cat. About two years ago we ran the first of several threads on this subject and they are pretty much classics. Every view you could want and the words to go with them are live with our members and are written in this forum. Just awhile back, I wrote the following post:

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Almost two years ago in another VietNam thread, we began to see the broad experiences of the times that were living right here at the 'Cat. From the words of myself and others, there is a cross section of experiences, all deeply felt, that encompasses the American experience of VietNam. More players have entered the scene since and many of us have repeatedly told our stories. Now, with most of us at the half-century mark age range, we have come together in a strange feeling of companionship. Some are still bitter in many ways, but most are mellowed and saddened and want to remember lest others forget.

Some are still in that place, that time, and can never move on because of it. Some have moved on and wish only to let it become history. Most are somewhere in between in a sort of no-man's land because those times and that war colored our lives in a way we cannot escape.

Most of us here came from essentially middle class, middle America, the offspring of parents who had fought and worked hard in the cause of a clearly defined war. We watched John Wayne in "Sands of Iwo Jima" and listened to the stories of the adults who had been there. We learned of heroes and poltroons and we believed in the sacrifices made in the name of freedom. One day we began to hear of a place where we too would be tested and honored. At 18 or so we were the product of Davy Crockett and Ira Hayes. But it was a different time, the world had changed, the news told of strange things which didn't mesh with what we thought we knew.

Realizations came at different times and in different ways to different people, and suddenly, we were no longer kids. We were forced to become adults and not always thinking ones. No matter where you stood, you were still a pawn in someone's game and the damned thing was, you were still trying to figure out the squares on the board. And what was the problem with those damn squares anyway? They were supposed to be black or white weren't they? They used to be! Now, somehow they had all changed to various and varying shades of gray. We moved about as best we could and by the best lights we could muster. And so it was...............

Ten people sit on a blackened stage. Above and behind them play the classic home movie clips of a 50's childhood. As the movies play, a single spot lights each as they tell a similar story that melds together almost as one so you can see these are all the same folks, from the same places, from the same history, in the same time. The movie carries on to teen clips and the story begins to unfold. Each of the ten begins to alternately tell their tale in that time. The movie shows clips of the late 60's, the war in both heroic and tragic scenes, the protests back home.....an entire panorama of the times as each story unfolds. Each of stories comes from the words written here and the characters on stage include soldiers, male and female, who came into the war with different ideas and out of the war with varying outcomes, a man who didn't have to go because of the draft lottery and has mixed emotions, a man who went to jail for refusing induction, a girlfriend left behind.........Ten stories that show well the result. And ten people now grown old who are willing to let it go, yet they cannot forget.........bonded forever from the times in which they lived.

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Its all here Night Wing....every point of view. Research some of the previous threads and you'll find someone from every conceivable angle.

Spaw