"the meaning most ordinary people associate with it."
ost ordinary people don't associate anything with it - ignorance based on misinformation does not constitute a definition.
You mentioned "more recent scholars" - as far as I can see, there are very few scholars, certainly in the British Isles - can't speak for the U.S. any more, though at one time I had enormous respect for what was happening in America.
The people I know working on research still use '54 as a base for what they do.
If anybody asked where they could find a comprehensive list of folk songs to introduce themselves to the genre, I would have no hesitation in recommending the Roud Index, which seems to have it covered fairly comprehensively.
Anthologies like Voice of the People (haven't heard the latest few) would be another recommendation - still stands, very much '54 based.
I was always hoping someone would reissue the Caedmon/Topic ten volume series, 'Folk Songs of Britain' with full instead of edited versions of the songs - America once intended to issue a sister-series with U.S. singers, but never got round to it.
I would advise anybody who wanted to learn about folk songs at its best to get hold of the School of Scottish Studies series - magnificent.
All these, and the virtually the entire traditional output of Topic Records are evidence of the influence of '54 - it has not been a definition for academics.
This was the stuff we cut our teeth on and helped the revival survive as long as it did.
At one time I would have said, go to a few folk clubs and you will emerge with some sort of an indication - that is no longer the case.
"traditional song, current imitations of traditional song, and anything else thought to resemble either in substance or style."
I don't really have any great problem with the first two as a rough guide, (though I baulk a bit about "imitating" anything, using forms and techniques to create new songs yes - imitation no).
I think tehe last bit far too vague to be of any practical whatever "thought to resemble" - by whom and based on what?
If a non-involved D.J. describes 'First Time Ever' sung by Roberta Flack as a folk song, does it then fall within the definition?
That way lies madness - but to a degree, that is exactly what has happened within the club scene - whatever someone wants to call a folk song becomes one.
Can I get one thing clear
I don't go around pointing to '54 or any other definition and demand that this is how we should define fok song - I don't believe anybody does or ever has done.
It was an attempt to make of sense of a half century's work on songs of a specific origin - nothing more.
It helped as a guide to generate an interest in those songs, both for research purposes and for entertainment - in my case, it was a welcome get-out from crap like 'I'm a Pink Toothbrush, You're a Blue Toothbrush' - we could make our own music without being fed the pap that the Music Industry doled out.
If somebody asks me what folk songs are I point to the songs, not the definition.
I'm fairly specific in what I point to and what I write and talk about not because I like them, but because I believe them to be important - they really do carry a whole lot of baggage which goes beyond their entertainment value - I've just spent a year finding and ploutering around some of that baggage for the first time.
I'm no longer involved in folk clubs - Ireland doesn't have an extensive club scene, but I would to see others get the same amount of pleasure and inspiration from folk song that I got from them.
I believe that that can only happen by realising the uniqueness of folk song and capitaling on that uniqueness.
It really has done wonders for the future of music in Ireland.
"i am a full member of PRS. I have sang my songs in folk clubs for forty years. i have never received a penny for the performances"
Which s the point I made Al - the money taken from folk clubs in the form of P.P,S payments goes straight in to the bank accounts of Mick Jagger and the like - a great boost for folk song (but then again - you would count these as folk, so it's going to a good home - after all - it's the people's music now.
"Interesting statement Jim, I thought 'new folk songs' didn't exist!"
I pointed out that I believed nothing of the sort and have given several examples of ones we have collected from Travellers - but that aside - that is the title of this thread and should be what is under discussion - not what any contributor should or should not say on it
I was trying to put paid to yet another effort to use this as part of an on-going vendetta.
"Still looking for anything in the definition you quoted that says 'borrowed' by the way"
You have been given it - you have chosen to ignore it so I'm not going to bother putting it up again.
"Please tell me, what exactly does it say on the label?"
Sorry Bryan - not particularly well articulated on my part - the two clubs I mentioned were 'The Singers Club' and 'Court Sessions' both of which I helped to run and sang at (for a short time in the case of the Singers)
What I should have said was, I knew that the type of music I was going to hear corresponded to what I thought folk song sounded like, neither were 'purist' clubs and both encouraged the making and performing of new songs.
It is the fact that this is no longer the case in many clubs I find objectionable.
Jim Carroll