Thread #158223   Message #3748902
Posted By: Greg F.
06-Nov-15 - 08:58 AM
Thread Name: BS: The Pope in America
Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America

but I also think that abortion is the taking of a life

Define "life".

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I dunno, Greg, but I knows it when I sees it. Multiplying cells are a pretty good indication of life. What's your definition?

Please note that the squashing of an ant is also the taking of a life. I did not say whether taking a life is right or wrong - it all depends on circumstances, and even then I would hesitate to give an absolute answer.

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Steve's 6:45 AM post was just more bigoted blather, so there's not much I can say in response. I didn't particularly like Mother Teresa or her conservatism or her preaching against abortion, so I don't see why I should be obliged to defend her. All I can say is that I don't think she was a wicked woman. I wouldn't vote for her to become a saint, so why blame me if she becomes one? I don't expect to pray to her, ever in my lifetime. Well, I don't usually pray to saints, anyhow...

Steve, let me remind you of your list of condemnations, I also "don't respect human sacrifices, the brutality of Moses that somehow manages to get him a bye, inquisitions, torture, stonings, antisemitism, the exclusion of women, circumcision, waging imperialistic wars and quite a few other religious traditions that I won't go on to list." I ask again, why in the world would you imply that I would respect any of these atrocities?

What makes you think that you have the right to condemn me for the misdeeds of others? I have not denied any of the misdeeds of religion - but neither do I espouse them. To blame and condemn me for the misdeeds of another, is the very essence of bigotry. And you, sir, are guilty.

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Most of the time, the naysayers here are the ones who attempt to define what it is that believers believe, and then they rush to condemn what they have defined. But is that really what believers believe? For the most part, I don't think so. Most people just aren't as stupid as other people think them to be [Yes, Greg_F, I am reading Idiot America, and it does make some good points]. Still, there's plenty of stupidity to go around, I guess...

So, what is it I believe? I suppose if it all boils down to the basics, I believe in Good, which I personify as God. Whether Good/God is a real or metaphorical person, is something I won't answer. But whatever the case, my basic choice of faith is that I choose to believe in Good. St. John says God is Love, and that has meaning for me, too. One could say that God is the perfection of all superlatives that lead to Good, and I'd buy that.

Karen Armstrong says that all of the great religions were formed in the Axial Age a term coined in 1949 by the German philosopher Karl Theodor Jaspers ("Achsenzeit" - "Axial Age" or "Axis age" in English) to describe a time between approximately 900 - 200 BCE when "The spiritual foundations of humanity were laid simultaneously and independently and these are the foundations upon which humanity still subsists today."

Armstrong says all the religions were established to express some form of the Golden Rule (Do unto others as you would have them do unto you). I'd say the Golden Rule, some form of basic morality, is but one aspect of religious faith. I think the more fundamental basis of faith is to seek the elusive Good, whatever that is.

Others may see it otherwise, but I insist on being judged and heard only by my own words and thoughts and actions, and see no reason why I should be blamed for or required to defend the words and thoughts and actions of others. I'm sure that I have plenty of flaws in my own thinking and actions, without having to be blamed for what other people say and do. I suppose my thinking is annoyingly optimistic, but I think maybe I don't mind being deemed a Pollyanna.

I see all things as seeking good, not that they necessarily achieve it. And I believe that somehow in the end, all beings will be absorbed into the Good, whatever that is. Christians call it the Kingdom of God, but others have other concepts that are just as valid.

Now, Good is an elusive abstraction, and it can be well-nigh impossible to grasp or to define - or to experience. I think that people have developed traditions and rituals and sacred stories in an attempt to grasp this elusive Good/God. They are all attempts to reach out and at least partially and temporarily touch this elusive Whatever - and I think that people of all cultures and traditions regularly achieve some sort of contact with or experience of this elusive reality that is beyond all and within all.

Another reality is, of course, that people often go astray in their quest for this elusive and undefinable Good. So, Steve's list is certainly not invalid - it just can't be applied universally to all religious endeavors. But religion does go astray, there's no doubt about it. All people go astray at times, even Enlightened Atheists. Not to say that there's anything wrong with atheism. Atheists are individuals, and all individuals deserve to be judged according to their own faults and merits - and their own thinking.

So, that's the thing. My faith is very simple, as is the basic faith of every believer. I believe in Good, personified as God. That's all. Theology is the exploration of that belief and its implications, and doctrine is the explanation of that belief, not the faith itself. And I admit that my faith perspective is annoyingly simple and annoyingly optimistic. But that's who I am.

There's good reason for us all to be pessimistic and cynical and untrusting, but that is not who I am.

I'll probably burn in Hell (or Whatever) for annoying Steve and Raggytash and others. But it's kinda fun....

-Joe-