"That's official then - we only take the word of the authorities and not the men who fought?"

By all means let us take the word of the men who fought. So far you have at least two men who were told but who never actually saw any summary execution and stacked up against them you have the written autobiographies and memoirs of hundreds of "the men who fought" who make no mention or reference to any such summary executions. On balance of probability I would say the silent majority win that one.

By the bye Jim, what is your problem, indicated by your complete silence, with giving us the details requested about these "Special Groups of Military Policemen?" - Could it have anything to do with the fact that they never existed?

A question for you Carroll have you any explanation of why none of "your" sources can put names to those who were executed (They would have been in the same platoon, same company if they were standing alongside them in the trench - i.e. they would not be strangers) or the names of the officer who shot them? (Or do you wish to tell us that the men in the trench did not know the officers who led them?) The answer of course Carroll is that it is all bunk, all rubbish.

"I do not think that anyone of this side of the discussion has ever referred to the troops as being "mindless morons, idiots who didn't know which way was up" etc."

No not referred to them as such Raggy, you lot only INFERRED that they did not know what they were doing when they volunteered, which I most certainly know from personal experience was not the case with any of the WWI veterans I ever talked to, read about, or listened to their recorded interviews (Take it Raggy that you have not been arsed to listen to the veterans interviews recorded for the 1964 documentary The Great War)

"What I would suggest it that in 1914 all working-class soldiers would have been used to being at the bottom of society, with all that entailed."

Ah so all the volunteers in 1914 were "working class" were they Raggy? Got any evidence to back-up that preposterous claim? Actual fact in most cases they were not, primarily as the "working class" was required to ------ work. The queues of volunteers in 1914 contained solicitors, bank clerks, teachers, students, etc, etc , they came from all different backgrounds - NOT JUST WORKING CLASS. The mass of "working class" recruits came in with conscription as women replaced them on the factory floor and the Army was none too impressed with the material, in their first two months of training your average "working class" recruit gained two stones in weight and 1" to 2" in height - simple matter of record - another thing you will no doubt not be arsed about checking (Can't really see why I bother providing you with the information - possibly in the vain hope that one day you will wake up to the fact that a discussion is more than simple sniping)

RE: The Paxman Programmes Jim, your ability to deliberately misunderstand everything stated is truly astounding - having watched them I would advise you to go back and do the same - you will find out that Keith A's quotes accurately reflect the message being put across.