Oh I do not think so Lofty, it was one of your nameless ones who started te ball rolling with the "Howlers" - only thing was he couldn't provide any examples of any supplied by our side of the "Discussion" - we on the other hand could supply plenty of examples by those arguing against us (Jom's have been the most spectacular - but that bloody Flamingo - even you have to admit it was an absolute corker!! - I mean you couldn't even script it could you - thick as pig-shit or what???). I suppose that is why they opt for the anonymous GUEST facility afforded by this forum, I mean they would only have to make one such "F**k Up" and if they could be individually identified they'd never hear the end of it.