Jim Carroll - 15 May 16 - 01:40 AM

1: "One minute it's temporary, next minute it's permanent"

Incorrect - As is established by reading the three relevant Acts:

1914 Home Rule Act that never came into force
Government of Ireland Act 1920 that established the two entities of Northern and Southern Ireland and only mentions TEMPORARY partition
Anglo-Irish Treaty 1921 that details North's option to opt out of an Independent Ireland if wished to do so.

At no point at all in any of the three Acts is permanent partition specifically mentioned.

2: If you agree that no amendments were ever put before Parliament, then it remained on the Statute books UNALTERED - i.e. NO CHANGES WERE EVER MADE - moot point really as the Act never came into force.

"opening up discussions" and "conducting negotiations" would not change the 1914 Act. Had anything come from these discussions and negotiations then the detail would have had to have been written up as an Amendment and debated in Parliament and voted on before the Act could be changed.

3: The assertion that Lloyd George wrote a letter "assuring Carson in writing that the exclusion of the six counties was permanent. is incorrect. The letter written to Sir Edward Carson by Lloyd George in June 1916 assured Carson that the North could never be forced into being part of a self-governing Ireland - which is a different thing entirely.

But I can see where the confusion comes from as in June and July of 1916 A DRAFT proposal had been drawn up in Cabinet:

"A modified Act of 1914 as "Headings of a settlement as to the Government of Ireland" had been drawn up by the Cabinet on 17 June.[15] The formula then had two amendments enforced on 19 July by Unionists – permanent exclusion and a reduction of Ireland's representation in the Commons. This was informed by Lloyd George on 22 July 1916 to Redmond, who accused the government of treachery. The government bowed to the combined opposition of UNIONISTS WHO NEVER HAD FAVOURED PARTITION, and the Irish party. ON 27TH JULY THE SCHEME FINALLY COLLAPSED."   

4: The Irish Civil War came about because of what doctored former agreement? The Irish Civil War came about because de Valera refused to accept democratic process.

But here was his take on it at the time, which he did not make public:

Éamon de Valera, had drafted his own preferred text of the treaty in December 1921, known as "Document No. 2". An "Addendum North East Ulster" indicates his acceptance of the 1920 partition for the time being, and of the rest of Treaty text as signed in regard to Northern Ireland:


That whilst refusing to admit the right of any part of Ireland to be excluded from the supreme authority of the Parliament of Ireland, or that the relations between the Parliament of Ireland and any subordinate legislature in Ireland can be a matter for treaty with a Government outside Ireland, nevertheless, in sincere regard for internal peace, and in order to make manifest our desire not to bring force or coercion to bear upon any substantial part of the province of Ulster, whose inhabitants may now be unwilling to accept the national authority, we are prepared to grant to that portion of Ulster which is defined as Northern Ireland in the British Government of Ireland Act of 1920, privileges and safeguards not less substantial than those provided for in the 'Articles of Agreement for a Treaty' between Great Britain and Ireland signed in London on 6 December 1921.

What Michael Collins thought of the Anglo-Irish Treaty at the time:

the treaty would give "the freedom to achieve freedom".

De Valera himself acknowledged the accuracy of this claim ten years later in 1932 - pity about that because if he had stated that in 1922 the Civil War would never have happened.

5: As to the Anglo-Irish Treaty being forced on Ireland under the threat of War Here is what Michael Collins said about that:

"The Path to Freedom Notes by General Michael Collins", August 1922; Collins did not state that the remark was made solely to Barton, implying that the whole Irish delegation had heard it: "The threat of `immediate and terrible war' did not matter overmuch to me. The position appeared to be then exactly as it appears now. The British would not, I think, have declared terrible and immediate war upon us."

But the "immediate and terrible war" being referred to could also have meant a civil war in Ireland between North and South, de Valera certainly was awake to that probability hence his reference to INTERNAL PEACE in his secret "Document No. 2".

There is no mention of this remark as a threat in the Irish memorandum about the close of negotiations. Barton himself noted that:

At one time he [Lloyd George] particularly addressed himself to me and said very solemnly that those who were not for peace must take full responsibility for the war that would immediately follow refusal by any Delegate to sign the Articles of Agreement."

And that is true, a truce in the Irish War of Independence had been inforce since June 1921, the negotiations being conducted by the Irish plenipotentiaries and the British Government were focused upon agreeing a Peace Treaty, it must have been clearly understood by all in Great Britain and in Ireland that if agreement wasn't reached then hostilities would resume.

The Treaty came into force and the Irish Free State was declared on the 6th December 1921 and on the following day, the 7th December 1921, Northern Ireland exercised its right under the Treaty to cede from the Irish Free State and remain as an autonomous self-governing part of the United Kingdom. "The Men of the Gun" didn't accept though did they?

6: Apologies but with regard to the implementation of the 1920 Government of Ireland Act, and what I said about it - I fail to see the relevance of your reference to Peter Beresford Ellis's work. Both North and South had birth pains in the South a totally unnecessary Civil War broke out that killed thousands and severely destroyed the economy of the new state.

7: As for the rest, please do keep your pile of books handy, because everything that you have put up so far has not explained any of the following:

(a) Why Pearse and Connolly had to keep their Rising secret from the Supreme Governing Council of the IVF and IRB - [Answer: Because they knew that their "Rising" would be cancelled].
(b) Why the orders were given to stand down were given to the entire movement that Easter in 1916 - [Answer: Because Pearse set the Rising up to deliberately fail - He believed that the "Movement" required what he called a "Blood Sacrifice"]
(c) Why so few were prepared to fight once the rising had started if indeed it was the will of the "Irish People"
(d) Why so few took part in the War of Independence - 15,000 out of a population of over 3 million.
(e) Why there was no great surge in IRA numbers when the Civil War broke out.

Since 1914 the people of Ireland in the main have always seemed to have demonstrated that their preferred means of finding a solution to any problem has been by discussion, not by violence, it was unfortunate that it took until 1998, 84 years, before the people of Ireland got a referendum that let their voice be heard. Those who have elected to take up the gun and the bomb have never had any mandate from "the people of Ireland".