"Now where is that post of mine in which I make the statement that I do not believe that Ireland is not entitled to independence?"

You've had it at least three times now - your are getting as stupidly, boringly repetitive as Keith.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that this is where I said that Ireland was not entitled to independence?

One more time -

NO NATION PARITIONED AGAINST THEIR WILL WITH PART STILL UNDER FOREIGN CONTROL CAN BE DESCRIBED AS "INDEPENDENT" - {John Redmond 1912}

Who is the THEIR in "against their will" Jim?

YOU SUPPORT THAT SITUATION AND DESCRIBE OPPOSITION TO PARTITION AS UNNECESSARY BECAUSE OF WHAT HAPPENED IN NORMAN TIMES - ERGO - YOU AR OPPOSED TO IRELAND BEING INDEPENDENT - YOU HAVE TOLD UD DO OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

I have told you very clearly what I support - the right of self-determination for all - you on the other hand espouse views of a leadership that demands that people be coerced into doing things against THEIR will.

Before the Normans came to Ireland there was no such country as Ireland, no concept at all of nationhood, the island consisted of a number of small kingdoms and tribal groups who all looked to their own best interests. Where the realisation of this reality becomes important is when you have to counter claims that the partition of Ireland was wrong because Ireland had always been one country, one nation it hadn't, and for one group or another to push their case and their best interests ahead of everyone else's seems to me more a reversion to what existed before.

Look at the different groups that existed in Ireland in 1912:

The Constitutional Nationalists - by far the largest faction, predominantly Catholic, they were quite content with Home Rule, within the Empire, and saw it as a step towards independence later. This approach held out reasonable hopes of reaching an accommodation and finding common ground with the other groups.

The Republican Nationalists - the smallest of the four groups by a country mile who wanted complete independence and a total break from Britain and the Monarchy as soon as possible, preferably by armed struggle.

The Southern Unionists - the smaller of the Unionist groups, who wanted Ireland to remain as part of the Union, but who were prepared to consider Home Rule provided certain safeguards were in place to protect what they saw as their interests.

The Northern Unionists - the larger of the Unionist groups, who wanted no change at all. Who saw any threat to the current Union with Britain as being directly against their best interests and a threat to their way of life.

Oddly enough by July 1914 three of these groups had reached agreement in principle, the only group that hadn't was the smallest and least representative of the four groups - the Republican Nationalists - who when the war came decided that they would mount an armed insurrection with the help of the Germans. In all probability, left to run its course Home Rule would have come in 1919, by 1925 the temporary exclusion for Ulster would have ended and by 1931 Ireland would have been an independent sovereign state. Home Rule by this route therefore spelled the end for the Republican Nationalists - hence THEIR secret meeting at which the need for a rising was decided took place on the 4th September 1914, BEFORE the Third Irish Home Rule Bill got Royal Assent on the 18th September 1914.

The Constitutional Nationalists - who represented the vast bulk of the Catholic South were urged by their leaders to support the war effort against Germany as that would help their cause and hasten Home Rule

The Republican Nationalists - who represented a tiny fraction of the population planned in secret even from their own membership an armed rising and colluded with the Germans in order to make that possible. A committee of eleven men were responsible for this and in secret a smaller group actually steered it through to final execution.

Both Unionist groups supported the British war effort.

In 1916 seven men from the Republican Nationalist group staged the Easter Rising and set it up to fail - Pearse's Blood Sacrifice. The rising and its aftermath over the following two years led to a radical change in what now was possible:

It basically killed off the Constitutional Nationalists hopes for the future along with those of the Southern Unionists. It hardened opposition among the Northern Unionists to any part of any independent Ireland.

When the war ended in Europe another began in Ireland, started on the 19th January 1919 by Sinn Fein who declared Ireland independent. The Unionists in the North took no part in this war and with the enactment of the 1920 Government of Ireland Act they got their own Parliament. Having started a war that they were unable to finish a truce was called and peace negotiations resulted in the Anglo-Irish Treaty of 1921. This treaty finally ratified in December 1922 created the 32 county Irish Free State but the Treaty allowed six Northern counties of Ulster to opt out of the Irish Free State if they wished and gave them one month to do so - THEY exercised THEIR right to self-determination within 24 hours and they opted out of the Irish Free State and stated that they wished to remain as a self-governing part of the United Kingdom, which then became the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

So those in the South had exercised their right of self-determination without consulting anyone in January 1919 and those in the North did the same plainly informing everyone of their intentions in December 1922.

The following I cannot state any clearer - I have no problem with any of that at all, I have got no problem at all if at some future date the people of Northern Ireland exercise their right of self-determination and seek a union with the Republic of Ireland - but that is THEIR decision and THEIR decision alone - no-one has the right to coerce them into anything against THEIR will.