A very reasonable argument Steve. Thanks for that one. On reflection, one of my brothers (the only one who had to go through the I think it was called the Kent test - a sort of 11 plus - I, the eldest and next one down went Welsh comp first and moved with the "A stream qualification" and we were back in Wales when youngest brother started secondary) might have been written off by the system. I am aware that on a parents day my mother asked about science in the secondary modern to get a sort of "kid's here can't do it/aren't interested" type response.