The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #162418   Message #3866317
Posted By: robomatic
15-Jul-17 - 07:36 PM
Thread Name: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
I attempted to weigh in much earlier in the thread strictly to the OP. I volunteered first a witticism, a quote from a movie, then a more thought out response, mentioning that one would hope that those with anti-fascist proclivities don't have to go eighty years in the past for their self praise.
Anyhow, there was some back-and-forth going on that seemed more repetitive than productive between the usual suspects. I didn't contribute other than to ask if anyone had figured out my first post "Mary McGregor!" Steve Shaw replied with a hostile and slightly condescending post which I took as complimentary (In the first place he bothered to respond and he referred to my writing as 'dense').
Then those posts disappeared. They were 'moderated' with all the dexterity of Gumby Theatre. They had been a legitimate part of the thread and not abusive.
I was unaware of other disappearances but I suppose that some of the personal attacks may have been eliminated.
Then I saw that some of the posters who have, in other threads, gone severely Israel-averse were themselves bringing up Jews in this thread (among themselves) in a manner of 'how dare others accuse us of being anti-Semitic when our forefathers were fighting the fascists for them.' It was too too much like apprecisating the victims, the dead victims, while ignoring their living descendants. Including the phrase "their Jews are not my Jews".
This is an indicator of a manner of thinking that is more ideological than thoughtful. As a friend told me : "having ideas is the opposite of ideological- then the ideas have YOU".
In general, in Mudcat, over many years I have actually avoided accusing ANYONE of antisemitism, until recently, and when I ventured forth, I saved that for one person only, although there are probably a couple more who deserve the term, such as it is. Just as the phrase "it's not personal" invariably means that it IS personal, the ones who most blatantly beat their own breasts as to their innocence are the most likely to possess the toxoplasmosis of bias.
I actually don't think of anyone as a "Jew-hater". It's not a useful term to use in these threads. I am not a mind reader. I think most of the hate in these threads is defensive in nature, folks saving face as their precious words are mocked and their motives denigrated. To me that does not advance a position or achieve progress in understanding a theme. I have resurrected a far older term from the past: "Jew baiter". This applies to certain people who go pre-emptive on terms that we all know will draw fire from the usual subjects. I have long since decided that I get to decide what I will be drawn by.
There is also a distinction to be made between fascists and Nazis. The fascists under Mussolini for example were great believers in totalitarianism, and their greatness and their right of dominance over other cultures. The Nazis in Germany were race-based persecutors above all else. This was science to them. It wasn't until Fascist Italy was occupied by Nazi Germans that Italian Jews were sent to Concentration Camps. The Nazis were going to eliminate ALL Jews and then build museums about the extinct race, where they got to define everything about them. Sort of like when some members of this thread thought that the living Jews had been moderated out. Then it was time to talk about them. Those "Jews are not my Jews". Snarky and cowardly at the same time.

Some of the anti-semitism derives from a good Soviet background: When Israel was a young up-and-coming state of people who perceived themselves as 'young pioneers' and came from organizations with names like "Bund" and who lived in Socialist enclaves called kibbutzim they garnered plenty of pinko love. The Soviet Union was the first country to formally recognize Medinat Israel. I remember an Arab speaker at the United Nations mentioning this with bittersweet irony during the televised U.N. hearings just after the Six-Day War.
But over time Israelis of the Jewish and Muslim and Christian persuasion have avoided the societal meltdowns of their neighbors and actually seen their economic conditions improve. They have achieved multi-party multi-ethnic multi-racial society and gone, sigh, capitalist in a big way. Israel is a beacon of entrepreneurial creativity in a region that is barren by comparison.
But other Middle Eastern countries have not. They still insist on forming organizations with names that include the words 'liberation' and 'front'. This makes certain knee-jerk would-be socialists, well, jerk their knees. For them time does not move on. They see multi-racial Israel and call it racist. They see mono-cultural countries all around her, seeking to become MORE mono-cultural, and say nothing. How powerful words are when they are used as cover: "liberation front" "hearts and minds" "shock and awe" "patriot act" "freedom fries" "dialectical materialism". It has been ever thus.

By the way, if there IS a moderator worthy of the name, what about that totally unrelated message from Vashta Nerada Date: 13 Jul 17 - 10:37 AM
It has no reason to be in this thread. It deserves its own thread if the poster so desires. That would be an elimination which would enhance this thread.

And still, no bites on "Mary McGregor!" ?????