I knew Vivian and Phil as a boy, my grandparents and Dad played music with them for years, My dad was a founding member of Tall Timber with Vivian and Phil, they replaced my dad without warning and threw him out, but I knew them and my dad never said a bad thing about them beyond the truth of how he was let go. One can listen to live recordings of my Grandpa Chuck Griffin on the voyager website among all of the other various groups and recordings like the Harmonicops!