The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #162666   Message #3899960
Posted By: Jim Carroll
16-Jan-18 - 08:45 AM
Thread Name: New Book: Folk Song in England
Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
"The disagreement is only about how many of the songs in the classic "
For the umpteenth time Richard the argument is that it is overwhelming number - 86 to 100%
If that is the figure you accept, your acknowledgement that workers made some of the songs is little more than lip service
Even the two Steves have accepted that workers may have made some
The fact that inter-class marriages was an important enough issue to have inspired songs indicates that they were coming from a grass-roots level - the beneficiaries of the state of affairs weren't too concerned about it
Anyway - it's not just a matter of upper-class families - the practice of marrying off daughters 'for land' or even selling off pretty daughters to wealthy clients was common to all classes
The Lord Leitrim assassination, where Clements was said to have claimed the right of 'Droit du seigneur' (first night with the bride of his underlings) gave rise to a dozen songs.
"Let's take each one on its individual merits"
You really don't have to do this Richard
periods in history gave rise to entire families of song
I've already covered the 'Broken Token' group
The 'Banks of the Nile', 'Manchester Angel', 'Lisbon' songs refer to the prectice of 'Camp Following' - often referred to soldiers wives, but also included large numbers of barbers, doctors, barbers, dealers, publicans,   prostitutes.... anybody who would serve the soldiers needs while on combat
The women were used to pass ammunition to the troops during the battles   
THis is my note for 'The Banks of the Nile on the Clare County Library website:

EBanks of the Nile (Roud 950 Laws N9)
Pat MacNamara
The theme of this song; a woman asking her soldier or sailor lover to be allowed to accompany him to battle or to sea, is not so unbelievable as it might first appear.
Armies once trudged their way around the world accompanied by 'camp-followers', mobile settlements of women, children and tradesmen all running risks not too different of those taken by active soldiers.
Following the defeat of the rebels at Vinegar Hill in 1798, British troops rounded up and massacres the camp-followers who has assisted the rebels during the fighting.
Camp following lasted into the nineteenth century and continued to be a common part of army life into the 19th century.
The same went for seamen; in 1822 an anonymous pamphlet suggested that members of the Royal Navy were taking as many as two women apiece aboard the ships. These women also proved useful in that they fought alongside their lovers at the Nile and Trafalgar during the Napoleonic wars.
The well-known saying "show a leg" is said to have originated from the practice of officers in the Royal Navy clearing the crew from their hammocks and bunks by demanding that the occupant sticks their leg out to show whether they were male or female.
'Banks of the Nile' is probably the best known song of women accompanying their lovers into battle or on board ship.
Though this version refers to the practice happening among the Irish military forces, the song is just as popular in England and probably originated there"

In the case of some of these songs, the woman is often pregnant
I'll happily go on to the poaching songs if you wish.
If this doesn't add social or historical significance to the songs, then nothing will

We really have tried to examine individual songs - at Steve Gardahm's insistence, but when it didn't go his way he did a runner
Jim Carroll