Things seem to have taken a strange turn in this conversation, so why not turn it even more.

There is a tendency to use certain words without really considering their ramifications. The result is associating concepts that don't always work together as if they are one and the same thing.

An example of this is someone's association of "capitalism" and "freedom" in one of the posts. As a musician (and an artist) it is obvious that capitalism is antithetical to freedom. To be an artist in a capitalistic state you have to be able to sell your art; that limits your freedom to create. Note that I'm not saying that socialism or communism is any more conducive to free artistic expression; in reality, the reverse has been true. My point is that for an artist to be free, the necessity of generating cash flow must be eliminated.

Although artists are at the extreme end of the spectrum, this same principle applies to anyone in a capitalist economy. The need to generate cash flow limits everyone; none of us are free to do something FOR ITS OWN SAKE. There always has to be a source of cash somewhere; either it is inherent in what we do, or we are reduced to doing it as an avocation, i.e., after we're through making our dough. The only freedom that exists in capitalism is reserved for those who's purpose in life is to make money. Period.

I also have a problem associating "Democracy" and "freedom". Democracy simply means that everyone gets to vote (ideally), not that you can do what you want to do. Majority rules is implied in supporting a democratic state. Along the line the concept of "minority rights" was added because democracies can be severely oppressive to those in the minority.

I would like to suggest that "free market Capitalism" (never seen it, never will) and democracy get spliced together so easily because both make the assumption that what works for the majority is probably the best idea. But that is clearly not the case. The best funded idea has a better chance to win out than the least funded; the best advertised to win out over the poorly presented.

Does this mean I am anti-democracy and anti-capitalist? Not necessarily. Does this mean I'm anti-freedom? Same answer. To talk about these things without looking close and hard at the ramifications is pointless and dangerous. The "rugged individualist" who left restrictive society to pursue his "freedom" on the prairie would just as likely end up dieing a horrible death (like the buffalo hunter who delivered the hero to the West in "Dances with Wolves") as live long, celebrating his or her liberation. Does capitalism work? It works well for some, poorly for some and not at all for others. And democracy? Read the Greeks and you'll see why the foundering fathers built so many restrictions into the system.

Troll, you always make some great points (not to discount those of others in this thread). I appreciate your posts. One thing that you said in your last post really jumped out at me, and I believe relates to what I said here. It was your comment about religion making a come-back. Why would individuals in a society based in rule of law, rationalism, market forces, democracy and capitalism (both of which claim superiority based on greater numbers rather than real value) look to religion for comfort and meaning? Could it be that this democratic & capitalist society that we cherish has so little of what we need to be fulfilled as human beings inherent in it that we need to look elsewhere for fulfillment? Just asking.

I enjoy the fact that the primary contributors to this thread are mulling things over, really thinking hard about things. I'm really afraid, though, that too much time is spent defending one's own POV and not enough seriously considering the arguments on the other side (that's why I don't care for comments about spelling or grammer. It's a technique used to undercut an opponent's argument without refuting it.). It's just an observation.

I'm not going to try to refute Guest John's last parsing of my last post. After reading his comments I feel that my statements stands as written.

Enjoy your day

Bart