Fair comment, Norton1. But my take on Vietnam (on which I admit I equivocated in the mid-60s) is that with hindsight it was wrong, and it achieved nothing. I'm not seeking to apportion blame with the benefit of that hindsight, only to suggest that we could learn from it. If we do, we must surely veer towards a presumption against violent solutions.

Jack the Lad, in response to McGrath's comments about Israeli lawlessness, what was the relevance of exonerating Sharon of the Sabra and Shatila crimes? McGrath was talking about Israel, not Sharon. Are you suggesting that Israel had nothing to do with those atrocities? Anyway regardless of what happened then, Sharon is the person most responsible for the present upsurge of violence. He knew what he was doing, he was advised to stay away, but he pressed on with his own agenda. I couldn't care less how many Israelis voted for Sharon. In doing so, they are all implicated in his crimes. They will get the peace and security they crave only when they behave more moderately.

Cern, Skeptic etc, I've seen Ramsay Clark fending questions at hostile meetings, and I'm with Cern. In my view Clark was impressive, and his critics seemed to have little in the way of facts to hit him with.