Gibb Sahib

I'm very interested in, what evidence you used to create a theory about Stan Hugill's "Cape Horn" version of Sacramento. I do not know any evidence to prove is that this version of "Sacramento" is fake. Even more than this, he explicitly says: "The most popular version was the Cape Horn one. It was probably the original one..."

"He may even have put some of his own verses" - Well, I don't want to use argument what you mentioned in your book "If Hugill says is good enough to me", but Stan Hugill was a shantyman in a real shanty environment, and if he sang extra verse or two, they became a shanty verse. So now is the question is, isn't this way shanty been created? So yes, this is the advantage of Stan Hugill, namely if He invents some verse or shanty, as a shantyman, it automatically becomes shanty as soon as first time been used for work.

Of course, we can dispute about did he do this compilation of the verses after, when he did not sail already, but this is pointless unless we have evidence.

But now we have an additional question, is that the "Cape Horn" theme, been unusual for this shanty? I did research on My library, and I get interesting findings. What I found is that the "Cape Horn" theme appears only in American Collectors: Colcord, Harlow, and Doerflinger, in English Collectors: Ferris and Tozer, Smith, Sharp and in their books theme not exist, exception is Stan Hugill.


If anyone wants to analyze those "Cape Horn" theme mentioned collectors, here I retyped them down:




"Cape Horn" related versions of Sacramento:

1. J. C. Colcord "Songs of American Sailormen" (1938)

A bully ship and a bully crew,
   - Doo-da, Doo-da!
A bully mate and a captain too,
   - Doo-da, Doo-da-day!

   - Then blow, ye winds, Hi-oh,
   - For Californy O!
   - There's plenty of gold, so I've been told,
   - on the banks of Sacramento!

        *2*
Round Cape Horn in the month of May,
Round Cape Horn in the month of May

        *3*
We came to a land where the cocktail flows,
We came to a land where the cocktail flows

        *4*
Came to a river and I couldn't get across,
Jumped on a slaver* and I thought he was hoss





2. J. C. Colcord "Roll And Go" (1924)

   - same as in "Songs of American Sailormen"





3. F. P. Harlow "The Making Of A Sailor" (1928)

Oh, New York's race course is nine miles long.
   - To me hoodah! To me hoodah!
Oh, New York's race course is nine miles long.
   - To me hoodah! hoodah day!

   - Then it's blow, my buly boys, blow,
   - for Californio,
   - There's plenty of gold so I've been told
   - on the banks of Sacramento.

        *2*
A bully ship and a bully crew,
A bully mate and a skipper too.

        *3*
Oh, New York's race track, where we stood,
We bet on all they said was good.

        *4*
Our watch, our shoes and every rag,
But lost our money on a bob-tail nag.

        *5*
Our money all gone we shipped to go
Around Cape Horn, where strong wids blow.

        *6*
We're bound for Californi-o;
For gold and banks of sacramento.





4. F. P. Harlow "Chanteying aboard American Ships" (1962)

   - same as in "The Making Of A Sailor"






5. W. M. Doerflinger "Shantymen and Shantyboys! (1951)

It Was in the year eighteen hundred and forty nine,
   - With me hoodah, and me hoodah,
It Was in the year eighteen hundred and forty nine,
   - A with me hoodah, hoodah ay!

   - Blow, boys, blow,
   - for Californi-aj! Ah,
   - there is lots of gold, oh, so I've been told,
   - Upon the banks of the Sacramento

        *2*
Were Going around the Horn and home again!
Were Going around the Horn and home again!

        *3*
We sailed away one day in May,
And when we came out into the Bay,

        *4*
We got into Bay and then did sail!
We got into Bay and then did sail!

        *5*
Into (Oh, into) the Forties soon we (a-we) did sail
Into (Oh, into) the Forties soon we (a-we) did sail

        *6*
Now we came to the hedge of the Trades and there did sail,
We came to the hedge of the Trades and there did sail,

        *7*
We set our stuns'ls on a quartering waind,
We set our stuns'ls on a quartering waind

        *8*
Now, when our sail were full on every stay,
With our old sails and every stay,

        *9*
She (Oh, she) strained her bustle and she dipped her nose!
She (Oh, she) strained her bustle and she dipped her nose!

        *10*
Now, our royals one day we took them in,
Our royals one day we took them in

        *11*
Oh, the doldrums came, and came so very slow,
Oh, the doldrums came, and came so very slow

        *12*
We climbed for days and we climbed for a week!
We climbed for days and we climbed for a week!


About the use word "Version", well is just a word that represents a description of the singular unit, which Stan Hugill decides to mention as something that existed stand alone. I don't want to change it, but if you want, I can use the word: variation, option. Stan Hugill uses the word "Version", and I try to recreate songs from his book, so sensible to me is use it.

About: "My inclination would just be to say "This is what Hugill said," rather than to use what Hugill said to state something definitive about the songs."
I used the phrase: "Stan Hugill thing, this version was the original one" so I think is, neutral enough. In all descriptions of my recreations, I try to put as much as possible of Stan Hugill and none myself as much as possible.




Steve Gardham

"'I'm really skeptical of calling anything a "version" in chanties.'
???? Me too"

I do understand this point of view. I think you cannot say it was a freeze "version" of the particular shanty, and nobody never added or took off from it because is prohibited. I think shanty have in their nature the flexibility to be changed by the shantymen, length of verses, add some unique verse, about the ship, He sails currently, and so on.

But I think is not a good idea to go to extreme relativism, and say melody same so this is the same song. I thig the moment when we can say this is a different "version", is when theme and motive are simply different, for example, the "Milkmaid" version and "Camptown Race", version. With all respect to Gibb Sahib who was right to say, there are exist some "generic" verses.