Allow me to butt in just slightly, Joe. It's not so much that you missed the point, but more that you diversified into discussing whether the artistic achievements of abusers should be dismissed out of hand once we learn about the abuses. It IS a valid question ((I tried to respond myself), but it did not directly address the issue that Raggytash raised, to his frustration. Had we been discussing the outrage over the coverups by the archbishops for about fifty or a hundred more posts, the slant you raised might have seemed, er, more valid, that's all. One thing you and I agree on is the despicable non-role of John-Paul II in addressing honestly and promptly the abuses. I can't believe that he was sainted. You know me, the militant ex-Catholic Dawkinsite. But I still feel the outrage over that. You can take the man from the Church (though he might not exactly have dragged his heels) but taking the Church from the man is an entirely other matter...