As an outsider who stumbled over this great site, and at the risk of re-opening wounds or endlessly rehashing a debate you have been having amongst yourselves, I am intrigued by the discussion. I have heard bits of it before in various venues, but never fully articulated. Is there a point at which something can go over to being traditional folk music, even though it was pop music. When I have done folk events with children in recent years, most of them have no idea that "Yellow Submarine" was written by anyone -- it is just there. And people like Leadbelly seemed to sing anything and everything that was around. I have a familar book to many people -- Rise Up Singing -- which has all kinds of songs that seem to have become (or want to become part of the common culture). There is an introduction by Pete Seeger -- is that enough to get them into the canon? I assume that the notion that untouched peoples are going to spontaneously create folk songs is pretty dead -- so where are the new "old" ones to come from? Or does it all stop on the day Bob Dylan went electric? I would have thought that you could call "California Dreaming" a "folk song on probation". It looks as if eventually people will forget who wrote it (the ultimate accolade?), more or less in spite of the music machine. As I said, I don't mean to step into a swamp. Just interested. Yours, Peter