"To cause intense suffering," and "something that causes agony or pain," are both definitions that are independent of intent or malice. Congratulations, you proved my point for me. Case closed.

And your discussion of the need for toys to amuse indoor cats pretty much supports my basic premise that cats DO NOT need to hunt and kill other animals. A responsible owner provides recreation for their pets and killing other animals does not need to occur. And as it pertains to Carol, I assume that somone with all the training she has can readily produce an academic source rather than "opinion" to support her statement that cats must hunt and kill. You simply have no support that it is abusive to restrain a cat from killing.

Regulations may vary, but nonetheless, there are legal ramifications in many areas for permitting pets to roam free and kill most animals. If you don't believe me, then call the local game warden and confess that your cat regularly kills game animals like rabbits, squirrels, quail, pheasant, etc. On a similar note, why don't you pass that information along to the local chapter of the humane society, PETA, or the Sierra Club.

I grew up during the depression when the ability to hunt and trap all sorts of animals was very important. After I got out of the army, I spent forty years living in several different states where i spend much of my spare time hunting, camping, and hiking. I have stalked and killed (with rifle and bow) everything from coyotes to Mountain goats. So, i have forgotten more about animals and the outdoors than any of you will ever know. About ten years ago i quit hunting and starting working as a volunteer at a state park (don't ask the name because they don't need any of you calling them). I help trap and relocate problem wild animal. I also trap domestic/feral animals and help to provide intitial care and eventual transport to shelters. And by the way, cats are very easily trapped compared to coons, foxes, etc. So much for your notion that cats are inherently wild and crafty creatures. The workshops that I attend have ranged from safety techniques, to species identification, to problems and policies associated with operating parks and wildlife refuges that are locate adjacent to urban sprawl. So, this whole debate is very amusing since most of you have very little understanding of domestic animals and virtually none when it comes to the outdoors in general.