Too bad spaw hijacked your thread Jon, without ever addressing your questions. Good on ya for trying though.

With the state of the forum being what it is, it seems obvious there does need to be conversation and debate, to clear the air and to find a reasonable way forward.

But like I said, as long as we see any attempts to discuss the complex problems here reduced to this simplistic guest=troll level, nothing will be discussed, much less accomplished.

Over-zealous members like Shambles feel they are on a mission from god. How do you discuss anything with that level of zealotry and intransigence being interjected into every thread where you try and discuss problems here? The answer is you don't, and the zealots win.