LH and Amos, it's a sweet idea. Trouble is, it's no more than pretty words unless there's any evidence to back it up. During the course of history, there's been many times where pretty words and deep philosophy have been favoured over the cause-and-effect which can be observed. At no point have the pretty words contributed to human happiness (in fact they've more frequently been the cause of much unhappiness and wars), whereas the cause-and-effect experimentation has contributed significantly to human happiness.

My point is that theorising about the meaning of existence teaches no-one anything about existence, all it does is teach us about the person theorising. Truth is that which can be demonstrated. You can believe what you want and say "I _think_ this is the case", but until you can demonstrate that your belief is actually the case then you shouldn't be criticising others who don't share your belief. In Amos's examples, possibly these guys are failing by trying to measure something which ain't there - this is an equally valid answer until Rhine or someone does come up with the goods.

Graham.