Amos and Wolfgang discussed the "effectiveness" of prayer.

This comes down (as almost all religious-related discussion does) to definitions.

"Effectiveness" in doing what? If one claims that praying for rain is demonstrated to be effective, I'll have to respectfully disagree. If someone says that praying for patience and the ability to tolerate fools is effective, it may well be true for that speaker.

Now we have to draw the distinction between prayer-as-petition ("God, please have somebody give me a Porsche 911 for my birthday"), or even (more realistically), "God, please let my child get well", and that kind of prayer (and I can't think of a name for it) which focuses on the praying person's own intangible inward being (ability to tolerate fools), and then the praise and glorification prayer, which may serve some of the same this-world purposes as that second type I mentioned.

The clergyman's-wife mother of my boyhood best friend once said that "God answers all your prayers. But 'No' is just as valid an answer as 'yes'."

I'm convinced there is no more way to PROVE the effectiveness of any of these types of prayer than there is to PROVE the existence or non-existence of God (or a god). Believe what you will, but realize that it just can't be proved.

Dave Oesterreich