The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #47438   Message #707526
Posted By: Joe Offer
09-May-02 - 02:14 PM
Thread Name: Origins: Dives and Lazarus-or vice versa(Child 56)
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
I think that when you're talking biblical Latin, the "correct" pronunciation would be the one I learned in a Roman Catholic seminary, since the Roman church is the one that used Latin on a regular, day-to-day basis. We called it the "Italian" or "ecclesiastical" pronunciation of Latin, as opposed to the so-called "classical" or "academic" pronunciation taught in the UK and in upper-class schools in the U.S. I suppose you could say that Paul is right in saying that "DEE-vez" is the correct pronounciation, since that's the pronunciation used by people who actually read the Bible aloud in Latin. As Dicho says, "DEE-vez" is also approximately the correct pronunciation in the classical-academic realm.

But, as said above, "Dives" is not actually a name used in the Bible, which refers only to "a certain rich man" (which in Latin is "dives," with a lower-case "d"). "Dives," with a capital "D" is a name given by English-speaking preachers to the unnamed rich man.

When English-speaking people use Latin, they ordinarily massacre the pronunciation. The English pronunciation of Latin "scientific" names has very little relation to actual Latin pronunciation, and I think you could say the same for the way that preachers and singers pronounce "Dives." I've always heard it "DIE-vees," and I suppose that's the way it's sung.

Are there instances anybody can document when it's authentic to sing it "DEE-vees"?

I studied Latin for 6 years and I'm familiar with both the Italian and "classical" pronunciations. When I'm speaking English, I suppose I'm wrong if I try to pronounce Latin names according to correct Latin pronunciation. The "correct" way to use Latin words in English is to slaughter them like all the other English-speakers do.

So, I guess I'd have to say that the "correct" way to pronounce Dives is to pronounce it incorrectly.

Got that?

In short, I'd go for "DIE-vees", even though it's wrong.

-Joe Offer, winner of the coveted Auxilium Latinum award-