"Augustine really invented the doctrine of Original Sin"

see now.....this is just the kinda stuff that starts pissin' religious people off :^)

There is a sorta transcendence to the doctrines of most religious beliefs -- that is, though someone may be known for pointing a doctrine out, those who believe the doctrine would not say that that fellow "invented" the doctrine. They would believe that the doctrine is in and of itself true, and the fellow who pointed it out was perhaps first, or just the best at pointing it out -- putting it into words -- systematizing it.

If I believe in original sin it is not because Augustine "invented it". It is because I can see it as a reasonable interpretation of the scriptures.

There is a difference between believing that something is true, and being able to support that truth by emperical means -- but those with real religious beliefs do actually believe that something is true. That doesn't mean that two opposing views can't happily co-exist, but it is one of the flaws in hoping we (religious and non-religious) can get along by a pluralism model, rather than by a toleration model.

Pluralism presupposes that all religious viewpoints (or anything else that cannot be proven empirically, for that matter) are equally invalid......presupposing in a rather condescending manner that "unprovable" is the same as "untrue".

Tolerance, on the other hand, merely demands that we allow for our differences in the name of a better society. It doesn't discount the possibility for truth.

Oh yeah, and when Jed says "I do deny that they have not made a similar focus of the sinfulness of men.", I agree with 'im on that'n too.