Bobert - You are an absolute star!!!!

"Good point, Little Hawk. I can't see a scenerio where a country would us nuclear waepons knowing that that ver action would bring complete destruction unless that country had allready been "attacked, invaded and its last stategic positions are aboout to be overrun"."

Which you follow with:

"Given that as a basic premise of man's instinct to survive"

Priceless, absolutely priceless!!!!

In Little Hawk's post so called "actual" and "theoretical" examples were given.

"Hitler in the last days of the Battle of Berlin or Saddam in the last days of the battle of Baghdad or Pakistan with the Indian army entering Karachi and Islamabad."

I am sorry, but the truth was that in the last days of the Third Reich, Hitler could have given orders until he was blue in the face, those to whom he was giving those orders - DID WANT TO SURVIVE - so they just ignored them.

I think it was General Slim who said something about, "Of the number of Leaders and Generals who order troops to fight until the last man and the last bullet - the Japanese is the only soldier who will carry that order out."

Now onto the theoretical examples:

Saddam Hussein and "The Battle of Baghdad", the result would be the same as for Hitler in his Bunker, Saddam would either be shot on the spot for suggesting it, or completely ignored. What this whole Iraq thing has been about is to ensure we never get the opportunity to find out - you Bobert on the other hand seem to be only too willing to give the man that chance. If Iraq, or more accurately, Saddam Hussein gets a nuclear weapon - it will be firmly targeted at Israel, the country he has vowed to wipe from the face of the Earth.

Indian Invasion of Pakistan:

Because Pakistan has a credible nuclear capability Indian will not invade Pakistan - they are in a stand-off. Pakistan has learned enough in the past not to attack India.

But Bobert you saved the best till last -

"...,I think its way past time to engage the world's leaders in a more inclusive, pro-human, pro-earth serce toward breaking the current cycle of violence.

It just takes courage to go where mankind hasn't been BUT it is do-able and within man's capabilities..."

It will be just after you have taken those steps President Bobert that you will learn the truth in that age old saying:

"You play ball with me - and I'll jam that bat right up your arse".