The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #61462   Message #988122
Posted By: IanC
22-Jul-03 - 10:55 AM
Thread Name: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
Subject: Open Ended Dating

Conclusions which can be drawn from Open-Ended Datings


Good dating practise requires both a Terminus Ante Quem and a Terminus Post Quem. When only one of these is provided, the dating is said to be "open-ended". Open-ended datings are seldom helpful because assumptions based on them, however made, are dangerous.

The simple statement that a particular song first appeared in print in 1744 (TAQ) and is, therefore no older than the 18th Century abounds in quite learned publications. It is both misleading and likely to be untrue. Without further supporting evidence (which might provide a TPQ) it is invariably unhelpful.

If we take two songs with open-ended datings, and two potential authors, we can see that the conclusions we can logically draw are very limited. For the songs, let us take:

The Cutty Wren - thos has a Terminus Ante Quem only of 1744, being the earliest known date for a version of the song.
Skye Boat Song - This has a Terminus Post Quem only of 1745, being the date of the Battle of Culloden after which "Bonnie Prince Charlie" fled.


Here are two possible authors for the songs selected at random.

King Henry VIII, born 1509 died 1547
Hughie Jones of The Spinners, born 1948


What we can we say is confined to the following two statements only.

(i) The Skye Boat Song cannot have been written before 1745 (TPQ) as the events it describes happened on or after this date. Therefore King Henry VIII could not have written it, as he died before 1745.

(ii) The Cutty Wren cannot have been written by Hughie Jones of The Spinners as a version of it exists from 1744 (TAQ) and Hughie wasn't born by this time.