The Makings of a Great Banjo

Subject: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 21 Nov 00 - 08:14 AM

It was an incredible adventure going banjo shopping with Guy Wolff for an open back banjo. I learned so much.
I thought it would be interesting to find out from others what they thought are the makings of a really good banjo.

I now understand the difference in some tone rings - whyte ladie is bright, tubaphones offers significantly deeper tones, and I can't quite describe the bacon tone ring but it had its own personality too.

I think I am looking for a banjo that has a pretty wide tone range, with deep undertones. I have a feeling it maybe the tubaphone.

I understand now that the pot size makes a difference. 12 inch pots offer a deeper tone than the 11 inch pots.

I can sense the depth of character/personality worked into a vintage banjo compared to a new banjo of comparative quality and construction but at this point in time, I am not prepared to spend lots of money on a vintage banjo.

The height & thickness of the bridge also affects the action, compensation and pitch. Straight thin bridges have high pitch, thick bridges have deeper tone. The moon shaped bridge can offer better harmonics.

Fibre skins heads seem to be the most popular for open back banjos. Real skin heads are too tempermental and the frosted or plastic type seem to be the best for bluegrass resonator banjos.

I still have a difficult time appreciating the potential of the banjo when you play it off the rack in the store. I've been told with a good set up, the banjo will sound so much better. How do you base what you hear in the store to what you will finally have after a good set-up?
Changing the string from light to medium gauge will help too. Often the strings on the banjos in the store are a light gauge.

I know the bottom line is.....Do you like how it sounds? How do you like the tone? How does it feel?

Just wondering what others have experienced with buying a banjo and what qualities others have based their banjo purchases on.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: DonMeixner
Date: 21 Nov 00 - 08:40 AM

Bonnie,

I have bought several banjos and all of them different in brand and apparent quality of construction. Some I bought preferentially over "Better" banjos. When it came down to cases, I bought based on tone and touch, nothing else. I played a Harmony Bake-a-lite Sovereign for years before I got my Ode. Tone and touch, nothing more.

Don

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 21 Nov 00 - 11:54 AM

At some point you have to piece all those factors in and pick out a banjo for yourself that you think could be good. Get it, and work with it as best as you can. You may end up loving it, or hating it - but there are always more banjos out there just in case. Some folks have a few different banjos to keep them happy (like me for instance). Good Luck! Arnie

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Nov 00 - 12:18 PM

Among the many dichotomies in my life are the way I've chosen banjos. Now anyone here for a while knows how much I love the look and feel of vintage instruments, but when it comes to banjos, my tastes have been positively WEIRD!

I've owned Harmony Bakelites (yo Don) Gibson RB 3, Deluxe Vegaphone from 1923, Cole's Eclipse from 1910, August Pohlmann Civil War Fretless, and several Vega frailers from various years.......BUT....my working banjos of choice for ove twenty years have been Japanese Ibanez and El Degas (late 60s vintage) models stripped of their flanges and resonators. Why? They're incredibly sturdy, are a bit lighter than Stelling or Deering, and I can let ANYONE play them without worrying about accidental damage. I doubt if I still owned the antique Vegaphone, I'd be passing it around a classroom for inspection.

T'other reason is that I believe with a tightening wrench, selection of heads and various peices of foam rubber, you can pretty well customize these sixties (that's important) Japanese banjos to any sound you want.

Now please Arnie...don't take this the wrong way, 'cause I know you feel about banjos the way I do about guitars and mandolins....but I LOVED the sound you got from your "kit" banjo. It's a Stu-Mac isn't it?

Local HARD playin frailer Chris Coole uses a Japanese banjo and sets it up to sound very "plunky". He uses heavy strings and high action that would intimidate many.

Saw Mike Seeger use a Gibson RB2 Mastertone as a frailer many times.....but he's excused, 'cause he was travellin' with several other instruments and you can only carry so many!

By the way, Uncle Dave, Doc Boggs, Stringbeans, and Grampa Jones all favoured resonator Gibsons and Vegas.

Rick

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 21 Nov 00 - 12:23 PM

Seems to me I should stop analyzing the instrument so much and just buy a 'fricken' banjo already!

Little Neo

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 21 Nov 00 - 12:38 PM

Thanks for your thoughts here Rick. Just wondering, was that your resonator banjo you were playing at the Freetimes Cafe? I've never seen you play that one before.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 21 Nov 00 - 12:40 PM

Two words keep appearing in this thread "sound" and "love". And the greatest of these is love. It is one thing to daydream, to speculate, to think analytically about the person you would like to fall in love with. It is something entirely different to fall in love. Love is worth waiting for.

Analysis is fun. Keep it up. I love to do it myself. But unless you are under some sort of significant pressures you haven't mentioned (you begin recording your new CD next week, etc.), don't buy a banjo just to get it over with. Judging from your other banjo thread, you are having a blast looking for a banjo. Why bring the search to a premature halt?

Finally, after you've found the banjo of your dreams, keep looking. As any banjo player will tell you, there's room in your heart for more than one dream-banjo.

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: kendall
Date: 21 Nov 00 - 12:55 PM

I love the sound of Granpa Jones' banjo. Can someone explain why his is so unique in sound quality?

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Nov 00 - 01:13 PM

No comment (believe it or not) on the choices thing, BUT................

Is anyone else as impressed as I am with Bonnie's knowledge and all? You've come a long way in playing, but you have come an equally long way in your knowledge of the instrument too!!! Great job!

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 00 - 01:37 PM

Kendall, I am familiar with Grandpa Jones' banjo playing but I don't know what you are driving at. At this point all I can give you is a generic answer to your question. When it comes to clawhammer/frailing there are as many banjo styles as there are banjo players. Every old time banjo player of the caliber of Grandpa Jones is unique. Further complicating things is the fact that there are no "standard" instruments for old time banjo. As Bonnie has learned, the variety of banjos and sounds available to old time banjo players can be bewildering. This also contributes to the uniqueness of the sound of any old time banjo player.

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 21 Nov 00 - 01:38 PM

OOPS! The preceding was from me.

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 21 Nov 00 - 01:41 PM

Yeah! I don't play one, and never considered all the factors. Me in my ignorance just thought all banjo's grate! Sorry, couldn't resist that one. Seriously though, I've learned a lot from you. Thanks Bonnie.

Cheers

Brian

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Nov 00 - 06:02 PM

Happy to Kendall. Grampa Jones tunes his Deluxe Tubaphone up to "A"! This has two effects. Number one it makes it just about the Loudest instrument in the universe. Number two, the combination of much tighter strings (obviously) and higher pitch make it the Brightest sounding banjo around. Warning kids. Grampa doesn't compensate by using lighter strings, so this puts a LOT of tension on the neck and will result in warpage. Perhaps he does what Leadbelly apprently did, and that was tune the strings down when he's finished playing it each time.

Bonnie, I was using my student Dave Lang's Resonator Gibson, 'cause I had Chris Coole on frailing banjo, and I wanted to use three finger style as a contrast. My banjo is set up for frailing primarily.

Rick

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Nov 00 - 06:52 PM

I've got two old zither banjos that I picked up hanfging there on the wall and I'm hopingt this winter to work on to get them playable. But everything I've ever seen about banjos seems to be about open back or resonator banjos.

So I was wondering, anyone know a source of tips on renovating and setting up a zither banjo.

And I'm curious - why is it that the open-back ones have the extra tuning peg up the neck and the zithers have them with the others, with a tunnel for the 5th string? Is it just fashion, or is there a functional, or aesthetic reason?

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: GUEST,CraigS
Date: 21 Nov 00 - 07:15 PM

I am not a good banjo player,but I know a good banjo when I play one, just like I know a good guitar (I am a good guitarist, but not a great guitarist). I have played a lot of good/great banjos, but the best open-back banjos were/are made in Europe, although it has to be said that those Ibanez banjos mentioned above are incredibly good value if you can lay hands on one. I play a John Grey, made in London, and it owes its incredible versatility to its extremely long scale. For that bluegrass sound, it is astounding, but the best-sounding banjos I ever heard were hand-made by a Dutch maker, whose name I have forgotten. I met two Danish guys playing them at Cambridge folk festival in the 80s, and they SANG! Incidentally, my guitar is a Bacon, and I've owned too many Gibsons, and the occasional Vega. My opinion is that Gibsons are good but over-rated, Bacons are good but need a compensated bridge, Vegas are too quiet in comparison to the others mentioned. The point to be made is that the American makers went with the closed back, while the European makers tried to progress further with the open back. Every banjo player's dream, though, should be an open-back Abbott(a work of genius) !

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Nov 00 - 09:40 PM

Hey McGrath, if you can up with the answer to why the Brits use the tunnel and the Americans use the short peg, I'd love to know it. My guess is that the Yank version derived from the instrument first used in Africa which DID have the short peg/string. Actually, probably the simplest explanation is that the first Brit maker DID it that way 'cause he/she thought it was cool...and others followed.

Craig..interesting stuff. Thanks.

Rick

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Nov 00 - 10:01 PM

Man, my typos are getting SERIOUS! 'Course I meant if you can come UP with the answer....*

Actually one reason might simply be that a number of Brit banjos have SIX tuners and were probably made as six stringers to begin with. Simply a way of using the same neck for two styles.

* on the other hand, my two finger typing speed has quadrupled since I've been here, so screw the typos.

Rick

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 21 Nov 00 - 10:07 PM

My Stew Mac Eagle banjo is my first banjo from a kit put together by the Toronto Folklore Centre way back when - well when I had hair. I still like the banjo for it's response and playability - and although it seems to cut it pretty good through a michrophone and P.A., it has poor bass/mid natural tone compared to banjos with a real wooden pot and tone ring. I'll probably never sell it, because I still enjoy playing it from time to time. Arnie

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: SandyBob
Date: 21 Nov 00 - 10:44 PM

Can someone please describe why the Abbott is so cool?

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 21 Nov 00 - 11:44 PM

Hello, All.. The search realy is for a voice that suites the player.. What gets interesting is that the player can also learn to suite the instroment. As alot of you have heard I have a 1906 Bacon ff profesional that has an incredable voise but dose not do well on a mid priced mike playing out.. It is perfect in the studio or in the parlor for frailing but the 1926 mastertone (Ball Bearing) as an open-back is perfect on stage .. It has alot more mid and low range and so presents it's own batch of tools and problems for a PA.. For a square dance without a mike or miked in the back of the band I mite even put the flange and resonator back on>

I realy liked the 12" Ramsey student model we saw at Tony's in Amherst and am thinking of it as a good banjo for my trip to Atlanta in January and so on for plane trip Gigs.. It again has a voice that will desirve listening to and learning how to let it play itself..The trick is to stay with any of these guys long enough to learn how to let them sound...A backalite Sovern has a good voice after it's been played for enough time to find that voice.. The Mastertone has realy taught me that.. Because of it's amazing sound I have gotten rid of all the rags and just listen to what the banjo had to give.. ( You know when you turn up the amp and then just let the guitar wisper)
Ah this is a great thread, Thanks Bonnie as always.. WHat a great place this is for making real freinds.. I do want to meet a ton of you all before I am done.. Spaw watch out <><> You too Rick and someday I hope to play with CHarles K in SF.. All the best , Guy

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 09:42 AM

Well, the tunnel might be to do with using the same machine heads, since that way it's just a question of cutting of one from a set of three, whereas a separate peg up the neck means you've got to have a special single peg. But sticking that tunnel is a bit of a bugger I'd think. I've seen one six-stringer, but I don't think they were ever very common.

The tunnel construction does of course have the advatage that you can slide a capo all the way up without complications if you're so inclined. I don't know if it's got any disadvantages (apart from needing six inches or so of exra wire, but you've got that anyway. (Though I suppose, if you break the first string, you could always use it as a spare fifth string.)

But the real differences in construction I'm interested in are up the other end - and here is where it'd be useful to get a source (book or net link) to tips on sorting out problems there.

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 10:03 AM

On banjos: Every banjo is different and setup is an important part of the tone. That having been said, I've heard very few banjos that stood so head and shoulders above the others that I would say "gotta have it." After a while thigns atart to sound alike and i would haev found it very hard to make a single choice.
The two banjos I play regularly are an old Sears Roebuck 'Supertone' (open back) made about 1910 with about a 12" pot, and a Vega "Little Wonder" with a very small pot (maybe 10-1/2") for which Kate Spencer, of the Arthur E. Smith Banjo Company of blessed memory, made a 5-string neck about 1976 or so.
the late Pete Colby made a banjo on which the 5th string went into a tube, as discussed here; he hadn't seen any British banjos (he said) and invented the idea independently, calling it a Fallopian.

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 11:25 AM

To make a great banjo

Take 1 banjo, 1 gallon of petrol, 1 box of matches....

Well, someone had to say it and risk the flames (pun intended)

Dave the Gnome (Not checking in tomorrow just in case;-))

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 12:06 PM

Dave, remove that banjo from the dashboard of your car immediately. We all know it's only there so you can park in the handicapped spaces.

Rick

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 05:19 PM

I'm not sure that the zither banjo (fifth string in a tunnel and a solid body) is particularly British - most banjos I've seen around aren't like that.

Anyway I've found this site, and maybe I can find out more through that. Looks interesting.

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: Bluebeard
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 08:45 PM

The first banjo I bought in the UK in Sixties was an old zither banjo. Wish I'd have kept it now. The feel and balance are important to me and it is definately worth trying different instruments in order to find the sound you are most happy with. I play a Bart Reiter 'Special" at present and it is my pride and joy. "It's worth the drive to Lansing !"

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 09:01 PM

Speaking of Bart Reiter, my good friend Jeff M. lent me his Bart Reiter Whyte laydie this week so I could see if I liked it. And tomorrow I get to go to Arnie Naiman's home to try his Vega tubaphone and he will also have a Bart Reiter tubaphone there for me to try too.
I am one very fortunate lady!
Trying these instruments out really helps. Especially when I can borrow one and have time alone with it where I can relax enough to discern what I like and what I do not fancy about the instrument.

I think I tried a Bart Reiter 'Special' when I was shopping with Guy Wolff but I can't quite remember what I thought about it. Probably because I was too distracted being entertained with Guy's concert he was putting on in the store. I still think we should have put a tip cup out.
Oy, so many banjos.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: Oversoul
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 09:28 PM

There are no "great banjos." But there are "great banjoists." Any fucking idiot can tell if the sound is, or is not there. Dump the romance, and get on with it. Inspiration on Korean Washburn is better that pap Gibson. Just play what you have to its fullest, move on up when the time is right!

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: kendall
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 09:45 PM

Dont know how to make it any plainer...most banjos are "twangy" sharp and loud. Granpas banjo always sounded mellow, even muffled compared to others. About 30 years ago, I could have bought one of his banjos, for ..get this..$200.00 lousy bucks. I couldn't justify it at the time, new house, car, wife, three kids,,shite.. I asked him why his banjo sounded so different, but, he couldn't tell me.

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: GUEST,(Edgar A.)--a.k.a. Art Thieme
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 10:42 PM

I learned to play banjo on a Mastertone that belonged to Johnny Carbo when we were both working for the Folklore Center in Chicago--circa 1965 or so. I was picking on it trying to teach myself to frail when Grandpa Jones came into the store. Pretty quick he ascertained that I wasn't very good and he offered to show me a few things. For the next hour or two he gave me a lesson. Then he went upstairs (to the Old Town School of Folk Music) to find Ramona, his wife. They did a great concert that night with three or four encores.
After that, I'd tell people that Granpa Jones taught me to play banjo. That was a big stretch but he sure was great to me that long ago afternoon in Chicago. I'll never forget him for doing that.

A few years later, John Carbo, who, if you remember, owned the Mastertone, was the film editor for the film The Blues Brothers.

I loved that old Mastertone. The best banjo I ever had, soundwise, was an old Vega Tubaphone. I busted the neck one day and the new neck a friend made for me didn't make the grade. The intonation was off and the frets were more speed bumps than anything else I thought.) I gave the Tubaphone pot to our son when he graduated from college. Right now I've got a Bart Reiter Whyte Ladie. It's a better banjo than I am a picker these days.

The only 12-inch head banjo I ever owned was a gorgeous ornately inlaid Washburn old-timey instrument with the tree of life going all the way up the neck. But the rent came due and I had to sell it. I usually don't mourn stuff that's "lost" over the years, but that is one instrument I truly should've held onto.

Soundwise, the 12-inch head had way too much echo and needed a large rag or sponge in it all the time. After a while that became rubber chicken and the jokes became part of the show. (Some folksingers wore a jacket -- But I always had a CAPON.)

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 12:40 AM

McGrath, thank you thank you thank you! What a wonderful site! I'm gonna have a lot of fun with that.

I can comiserate Art. I sold my lovely 1923 Deluxe Vegaphone to pay the rent. Silly boy. One I simply LOST(!!??). Good grief! It was a mid 1860s August A. Pohlmann fretless with the signature of a Union Soldier on the inside. One of great "little" moments for me was drop thumbing some of the period tunes that the original owner might have played during one of his campaigns. I think I took it to somebody's place with about four other instruments and left it there. About four weeks later I realised I didn't have it....and couldn't remember where I'd been!

Rick

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 04:50 AM

Good thread, Bonnie--and whazzzup, Rick and Guy and Catspaw and McGrath and Kendall and all...

This may be a place--seeing how knowledgeable all of you are--to ask for some feedback about a banjo I recently acquired: It's an S. S. Stewart "Universal Favorite" No. 1, which sold for $20 in the 1890's, and for which I paid $450 in October. It was apparently all original except the skin head had been replaced with a frosted one and some owner apparently paid to have some pretty fancy inlays done in the peg head and mother of pearl stars and diamonds in the neck. Or it may be the neck of a more upscale instrument in the line (the dowel stick is stamped S. S. Stewart and has an 1890's serial number).

The frosted head was too shrill and kind of ugly so I bought a fiberskin head, took the instrument apart completely, polished off a century's accumulation of tarnish and gunk on the nickel plated german silver pot (backed by cedar) and put it back together with the new head. It looks great and sounds even better, no longer shrill but rich and loud.

The tuners are the original friction pegs with ivory knobs--which I hoped to replace with geared tuners (I bought some from Elderly which were supposed to fit old time banjos without enlarging the peg holes in the head, but the shafts are 9/32nds (as advertised) but the holes are a quarter of an inch, so installing them would require some drilling out, thus perhaps reducing the value of the instrument. In addition, the headstock is 5/8ths of an inch thich, and the tuners' shafts wont fit a headstock any thicker than a half inch, so in order to install them, I'd have to countersink the holes an eighth or 3/16ths of an inch.

Now I'm not as concerned about maintaining the collector's value of the instrument as I am in having it playable (and retunable--I use several different tunings and the old friction tuners, in order to hold pitch, have to be tightened so much that they practically require a wrench to tune them). The neck is also just slightly warped, making it harder to fret above the 5th fret, and particularly above the 10th, and the last few frets, from about 19 up are there only in principle--the 22nd fret is what you hear when you fret any of the last two or three below it.

If I could afford it, I might have a neck built by Wyatt Fawley (I have a banjerine with a 1920's Slingerland head and a Fawley neck--sweet sounding but not very loud: wooden pot, no tone ring) or Mike Ramsey. I really love the sound of the instrument but I have a hard time with the neck: I'm spoiled by the fantastic action of my Wildwood Tubaphone.

Whaddaya think? Should I assault this beautiful peghead and make the instrument tunable or should I respect its age and beauty and maintain it as it is--or have a new neck built but keep the old one to maintain the instrument's value (if my purchase price is any indication, it's not a highly valued collector's item anyway--a new neck would cost about what I paid for the banjo in the first place).

--seed

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 02:32 PM

Hi Seed, happy holiday(s) from Heather and I.

Ya know I'm of two minds about "messing with" an antique instrument, but the bottom line is it's YOUR instrument now. It's not one of a kind. I'd fix it up to be exactly what you want and thank Washburn for making the original stand up for all these years.

It's kinda like the U.S. Government agonizing about ammending their treasured constitution. Some things simply don't WORK as well as their modern equivalents, 'cause too much has changed. Old friction pegs are beautiful, but we live in faster times...and if I was pickin' with you I'd want you to get into those tunings as quickly as possible. So my vote goes for "the improvements".

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 02:41 PM

Might be worth hunting around to see if you can find quarter-inch pegs somewhere, maybe cannibalised from another banjo that's past repairing. (That link I found which Rick liked tso much might be able to help.)

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 05:43 PM

I see Sully stocks 9/32 pegs. Maybe you would get away with those. Details are at http://www.halshawmusic.co.uk/pegs.html.

Jon

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: GUEST,mountain tyme
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 06:16 PM

On the classic video interview with Ralph Stanley he states "the more brackets, the better the banjo" :) He prefers "arch top" and uses "nines". Don't know if this helps but his "StanleyTones" sound purty good fer the $$$...gold plating is extra. 50 years & 160 albums of finger exercizes helps too.

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 09:13 PM

Jon, I have the 9/32nds, but the holes are 1/4". I don't know if there are any geared pegs with 1/4 inch holes--and with shafts a quarter inch longer.

McGrath, I followed that link, too. I haven't had a chance to check the place out completely, but it has a good clawhammer banjo newsgroup to which I might post my question. I might also send it to Michael Holmes (Mugwumps.com), from whom I bought the Slingerland/Fawley. I did send him an e-mail when I bought the Stewart, but he never responded (I didn't ask him these questions)--although he responded to several messages before and just after I bought the S/F from him.

And Rick, I fully intend to upgrade the banjo some way, but I pause at taking a chance on messing up the neck by in the manner I described. I called Elderly's repair department and asked a luthier about it, and he suggested I go ahead with it (he would, because he can trust his workmanship--I'm not so sure I can trust mine). In preparation for doing the job, I bought a 9/32nds drill and a 5/8ths wood drill, but I don't have a drill press to make sure my holes are perfectly perpendicular to the headstock's surfaces,and I'm not sure of how to drill the countersink holes to the exact same depth (I'm thinking 3/16ths"). Is there some kind of stop you can attach to a drill to keep it from going too deep, one that won't scratch the surface around the hole?

--seed (and Happy Thanksgiving to you and Duckboots, too--and to all of you)

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 09:29 PM

If I was trying to make that kind of small adjustment I'd probably be thinking more in terms of a round file. That was what I used when I had to put new machine heads in a guitar and the hole was a wee bit small for them. But it wasn't a 1890 classic, so I wouldn't venture to recommend the idea.

9/32" seems a funny amount to me. Is it really some metric measure, like 13mm?

I'd have a good go trying to find a half-incher somewhere first through the net. But at the end of the day, instruments deserve to be played and need to be playable.

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 09:30 PM

Sorry seed, I was rushing and did not read your post carefully enough (bad habbit of mine). I can't find 1/4 pegs listed anywhere.

Jon

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 08:13 AM

Boy I sure had an amazing experience last night. I went over to Arnie Naiman's home and he had for me to try a Bart Reiter Tubaphone he borrowed, his Vega Tubaphone, his Ramsey 'Special' and I brought the Bart Reiter Whyte Laydie Jeff M had lent me to try out.
Arnie and I both chose one song and played it on each banjo.
I could clearly hear the difference between the Whyte Ladie and the Bart Reiter Tubaphone. I have a feeling the set-up on these banjos is much better than what I tried in the store. Made it much easier to discern the difference in tone each banjo had to offered.
Although I do like the Whyte Ladie, I prefer a deep throatier echo type sound offered in the Tubaphone.
Describing the tone of these banjos reminds me of describing the taste of different wines.
Although I sure did love the sound of Arnie's Vega Tubaphone the current Vega Deering price tag on that banjo is steep.
I really did like the Bart Reiter Tubaphone, and it is so pretty too. So guys, I've finally made my decision. I am going to get the Reiter Tubaphone.

  Once I get my banjo there are things that will help bring out more of its potential like putting on a 'no knot' tail piece, and a moon shaped bridge once I know what action height I will want.
Arnie has put a bronze .024(I think?)gauge guitar string on his 4th string and his 5th string is .012 gauge. It makes a difference.

I found out that up the neck (close to the pot) where it is worn away where Arnie and Chris Coole tend to play mostly, they have filed that part down.  I thought they had worn it away from use!  The filing down allows them lots of comfortable space to get to the fifth string with their thumb.  Arnie has very high action on his string for the same reason.

I also now understand why they do not change their head when it looks so worn away. That is because you do not want to tamper with a good sound once you have found it.  Changing the head is like a baker getting a new oven.  It can change everything.
In fact each fibre skin head will sound different even if they are the exact same make and model.

I learned so much last night. Thank you Arnie.

Rick is right about that old banjo of Arnie's. The Steward-Macdonald "kit" banjo has tons of character. But he wouldn't sell it to me. Wonder why?

Bonnie  

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 08:25 AM

I think the high action on Arnie's banjo also has to do with the neck angle position. If you can not adjust the neck too much then you can work with the bridge to compensate.

Also the width between strings makes a difference too.
Not too sure how much spacing I need between strings.
Never thought about it much. I guess that is a whole other thread of thought.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 03:19 PM

Hey, Art, my first time through the thread I missed your post (and Rick's response)--as I was reading down the thread I got to the point where I had formulated about what I wanted to say and wanted to get it down before I forgot it, so scrolled quickly to the end to post. Luckily I found your posting when I came back to check the thread today. It's good to hear from you--do I take it from your message that you are still able to play the banjo some? I really love your frailing on the disk--as I think I have mentioned in the threads on several occasions.

And McGrath--we New Worlders are still stuck on the feet and inches and fractions thereof--wrenches are available in both inch and metric sizes, but drills--unless they are imported--are mostly fractions.

And finally, Bonnie, forgive me for not greeting you above, too--I was planning to respond directly to your email which sent me to this thread in the first place (which I finally got around to doing).

Love, peace, and health to all, along with the music to make it happen,

--seed

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 04:05 PM

I'm all for non-metric measurements. I was just speculating that a metric one might have sneaked in somewhere, and been translated. It's a real bugger these days trying to fix something and finding they've gone metric on you and you can't find the size you want.

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 04:38 PM

McGrath, I don't know how close measurements would need to be for them to be considered equivilants but 9/32" is approx 7.14mm or about 5/1000" bigger than 7mm.

Jon

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: GUEST,Mad Georgie Wilson. Southampton
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 08:16 PM

A man walked passed a junk shop one dark evening. In the window was a huge stuffed rat in a glass cage. He went in and enquired. The nervous shopkeeper thrust the case into his arms. "Takeit. No charge". The man walked off down the road. Pitter Pat. He turned and saw he was being followed by a large rat. He hurried to the corner. Pitter Pat louder. Now there were dozens of rats. He ran down the hill. Pitter pat deafening. Now there were millions of rats. He stopped by the river. The rats surrounded him, staring menacingly. In terror the man hurled the glass case into the deep centre of the river where it bobbed and sank. Millions of rats swarmed past him and hurled themselves into the swirling currents,rat-paddled in vain before sinking below the surface never to be seen again. The man stared at the dark water. Then he ran up the hill, round the corner and up the street back to the shop. He arrived as the junk shop owner was just closing and burst into the shop. "You know that stuffed rat in the glass case?" The shop owner backed away in terror. The man looked at him and said, "You haven't got any stuffed banjo players have you?"....

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 08:27 PM

How disappointing Mad George.
Here I was engrossed in your story. Think you were offering some deep, profound meaning behind all this searching for the Holy Banjo Frail. Imagining myself following the banjo herd running after tubaphones, whyte laydies and whatever else is trendy in the banjo world. Only to realize at the end of your story, it was just one more banjo bashing joke.

Little Neo

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 08:36 PM

Relax Bonnie, it is an old one and one that I have told a varient of in Mudcat and I have heard other banjo players tell it...

Jon

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 09:05 PM

Jon, I was just joking around too.
But actually it was true, I really thought I was going to hear something very important I was supposed to be learning from George's story.

Bon

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 09:24 PM

There's the rather cruel story about the three fiddlers, but it could just as well be about banjo players.

They were in a competition, and the first one steps up to the stage, and he was wearing a beautiful dress suit, and he's got flashing dark eyes and a mass of wavy hair. And he opens up his case, and he takes out this beautiful violin, a stunning instrument. And he put it to his chin and tosses the hair back, and starts to play.

And it was it was a lovely sound, and he was technically faultless. But there was something missing - no feeling at all, and people found that as he went on they were stifling yawns, and sneaking glances at their watches.

And then the second one came on. A smart brown countryman's suit, and a sensible haiorcut, and a workmanlike wooden box from which he took the fiddle. And he steps up, and he taps his foot, and he starts to play. And it's good lively stuff, you could dance to it. Practical music - but somehow, there was nothing magical there.

And then the third man comes out of the shadows. And he was ramshackle sort of figure, all rags and tatters and wild hair all over the place. And he steps up and he's got a rubbishy old sack in his hand, and he opens it up and takes out a fiddle that looks like a wreck - it's got scratches and dents, and a hole right through the front of it, and the bow has hardly any hairs left on it.

And he lifts the bow, and he taps his feet, and he looks arounde - and then he starts to play.

And he was absolutely terrible...

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 06:23 PM

Its so funny.. I have people come into my pottery all the time and they will walk right over to the pot they like pick it up and then go look around the shop..They might look an hour at the whole place but will end up getting tohe first thing they picked up.. I remember saying to Bonnie at the beging of our adventure that I thuoght the Reider tubaphone was the right instroment for the job .It is funny how this stuff works out.

Charles I think the idea of having another neck made is a nice one if you can aford it.. It sounds like the worp in the neck may be bothering you anyway and then the value of the original is kept and you hit two birds with one stone..Or is that two necks on one banjo.. ( can they do that?? ) All the best Guy <><><> Sorry this is so much later but my searver has been alittle crazy this week... They did'nt tell my IMAC they were changing thier telephone ##.. My best again and I am so happy for Bonnie and the rest of us for the music she will make on her new banjo!!!!!!

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: Luke
Date: 01 Dec 00 - 12:12 AM

I play a Bart Reiter and a Deluxe Tubaphone and love them both for all kinds of reasons. the vega smacks you and the other warms your belly. My new dream is to have a bass fretless banjo like the one Reed Martin plays. He strings it with nylon strings. Man it sounds so good and wants to lead you to some pretty reemarkable places. I would also like to play like Reed if thats allright.

I love this thread.

great to see your name here Art as well as your always great palaver.

Luke Bob Lucas

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 01 Dec 00 - 06:45 AM

Luke, which Bart Reiter do you have?

Well guys my Bart Reiter Tubaphone will be here next week from Mandolin Brothers. I've ordered a no knot tail piece and a Vega armrest from Stewart Macdonald.

I was told if I changed the Waverly tail piece the Barter Reiter comes with to a no knot kind the strings may respond better.
I chose the Vega armrest because it is narrower than the other armrests, taking up less head space.
Once I get my banjo and see what action I want, thats when I will decide on the appropriate bridge.

If I find my playing nestles up the neck just above the pot I may even get someone to scoop it out with a wood file like the Ramsey Chanterelles are. Oh my god! Can you imagine someone doing that to one of those lovely Bart Reiter necks? Well I would do it if I find this banjo does become a part of me.

It is a really pretty banjo with impeccable workmanship. The potted flower inlay on the peghead is gorgeous. But knowing me, I will soon have well loved scratches, scuffs and scars on the my new banjo.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: Luke
Date: 01 Dec 00 - 08:04 AM

Bonnie,

I don't know the model but it's maple with a moon on the headstock. It's a large pot maple also. Nothin fancy otherwize. fiberskin head hmmm I think it's your basic banjo. It has a very warm tone and works great for all kinds of tunes. Great for playing with just a fiddler or accompanying songs. Love the way it slurs notes together when I slide around on it. Many warm harmonics . It sounds like you are getting a great one. I wish you lots of great hours of discovery and friendship with your new musical pal. be careful though, they say "if you keep pickin' it, it will never heal". Thats been the case with me.

Luke

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 08:57 PM

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: JedMarum
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 11:03 PM

hmmm, what brought this back up?

I don't know a lot about 'em, but trust my gut reactions to sight, sounds and touch. I've never played a Deering I didn't like, even their el cheapo, cheapo is a gem. I love my Vega - a long neck, tubaphone made by Deering. I've not been too impressed with the few Mastertones I've played off the rack at Guitar Stores, but was floored by a Stelling I tried under the same conditions. I've found an odd one or two at Vintage Instrument shows that I liked, including a 'frankenstein' tenor pot with a five strig neck (both from circa 1880). But I think the biggest surprise I got was when I walked into a local music shop in Fredricksburg VA - and played a beauty from a local maker. It was an open back, heavy tone ring (don't know what design) with fine hardware, simple, impecible wood work, nice neck - and a pure magic sound; a bit more delicate then my Vega, but full, clean, sweet. I was clever enough to catch the name - but I can tell you I hated putting it down!

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: JedMarum
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 11:04 PM

and one more thing about that local VA banjo - the sales list price for the brand new banjo was $850!

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 09:46 AM

Charles - Good luck on modifying your S.S. Stewart. My guess is the inlay is original, some of the Stewart inlay patterns were outrageously ornate according to my reprinted catalogue. I have an older Orchestra model, myself, which I had modified at Elderly years ago, replacing the beautiful friction pegs and installing a fifth string "railroad spike." These instruments were originally designed for gut strings although mine has held up well with steel strings; neck bending and twisting is not something you want to live with for a playing instruement; my brother had his "twisted neck" on his S.S. Stewart Thoroughbred corrected by having the ebony strip removed and the neck base reworked; don't do this if you're a collector but if you were one you're probably not reading this post.

I'm curious about the new Saga SS-10 banjo which are supposedly modeled after the S.S. Stewarts; anyone compared them?

Subject: RE: The Makings of a Great Banjo
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 12:11 PM

Jed,
Probably one of Mike Ramsey's excellent banjos. See http://www.ramseybanjos.com/. We have two at our house and are awaiting a third.