What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 12:49 AM

Boy have I learned a lot over the past few years, since asking this question! I actually was a bit miffed when I heard this interview and song "defining" folk, etc. I think the interviewer needs to visit the Mudcat!

Thanks, it was fun to re-read this, again.

kat

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 14 Oct 00 - 12:32 PM

it could always be worse...

Someone could write a song about how the world doesn't need any more Wallmarts....

That would be truely insipid...

:-|

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: bflat
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 05:08 PM

Shanbles, you are correct that Eric Bogle is an Austrailan but he is a Scottish emigrant and has lived there about twenty-five years, I believe.

bflat

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 04:59 PM

Is not Eric Bogle an Austrailan?

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Grab
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 10:02 AM

How come this got refreshed after a year or so? Do you have archaeological aspirations, Hammie?

Grab.

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 12:24 AM

Isn't this a rhetorical question?

Rich

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: GUEST,Murray Macleod
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 11:28 PM

Hammie, Ewan McColl was Emglish, not that it really matters ....

Murray

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: GUEST,Murray MacLeod
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 11:25 PM

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 07:13 PM

What kept you Bill? .....Smiles

Singer Songwriters. A defence

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 07:02 PM

there is a profound difference between people who made up songs and sometimes sang them and ****Singer/Songwriters**** ......many of the latter tailor their output to fit the trends, so they can keep the spotlight on themselves...(not illegal, or even 'wrong'...just provides a different flavor of product)

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 06:31 PM

I consider singer-songwriters to be the heart and soul of folk music, virtually all of which has been created...and is being created...by singer-songwriters.

A song is not sacrosanct just because no one can remember who wrote it...or when.

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 12:22 AM

Thanks to Hammie for refreshing this thread. I had forgotten Rick's CaribAfroMaxiMariCeltoid. And the wonderful Puppy joke and Brendy's any asshole joke, and best of all the "singing their diaries" observation.

Rich

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Ely
Date: 10 Oct 00 - 04:14 PM

1) I can't sing or write songs. I have no plans to try it and DEFINITELY won't subject the rest of the world to it if I do.

2) Yes, I've been guilty of making jabs at singer/songwriters. Very unfair of me considering many of my favorite musicians/singers, folk or no, write a considerable portion of their own material (Norman Blake, Gillian Welch, Paul Geremia, Freakwater, Jean Ritchie, Townes Van Zandt, Hazel Dickens, etc.) and perform it very effectively. I have tried more recently to focus on the good ones and not jump to negative conclusions when I hear the term.

I'm convinced that part of my problem is college, where everybody seems to want to air their angst and be patted on the back for it. I've been to numerous concerts given by performers whom friends loved, only to find some kid whaling away on a guitar and howling. What goes through my mind?

1) I don't play solo guitar in public because I'm awful, but I'm still better than [said performer]. Is there an Eleventh Commandment I missed, "Thou shalt play only harsh percussive guitar"?

2) I'm good friends with [said performer] and I KNOW that her life is not that hard. A little college-years confusion and growing pain does not constitute a hard life.

3) [Said performer] watched too much Disney as a child or she wouldn't have written seven astonished songs about relationships that didn't last happily ever after.

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Bernard
Date: 10 Oct 00 - 02:29 PM

Many of the singer/songwriters we get round this part of the world fall into what I regard as the 'conceited' category.

By this I mean that they do ONLY their own material for the whole of the evening, and seem oblivious of the fact that they cannot hold the audience's attention.

I cannot write songs, but I can hold an audience's attention. Therefore, I feel qualified to comment.

The art is to give the audience 'something they know', and 'something they ought to know' in a fine balance.

Please don't think I'm totally against singer/songwriters - just those who can't 'read' their audience...
:-)

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 10 Oct 00 - 02:15 PM

I think that Ewan McColl was all right as a singer/songwriter, He's just as good if not better than Eric Bogle, both I might add are Scottish.

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Spike Cajones
Date: 22 Nov 99 - 10:34 PM

Hi Mary
Yeah I know the rhythm you're talkin' about, but please don't make me explain it. It bores me to tears.
Rick

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 99 - 09:59 PM

There's good singers (by which I mean people who can put across a song well), and there are people who write good songs.

Sometimes, if they are lucky, they are the same people.

I think when people get pisssed off, and start sounding off about "another Singer/Songwriter", they're thinking about people who try to combine the two roles, and can't do it.

Most of the time I think the antagonism is towards people who are fair enough singers, but who feel obliged to sing songs they have written themselves.

And I think it's worth noting that for a lot of the people who have been picked out as good Singere/Songwriters, the songs they are best known for are songs they didn't write themselves.

I also like that term Songmaker - because that includes people who can make great songs that they can't sing as well as they need to be sung. And if you get back in the tradition, a lot of our best songs came through people whose singing was very minimal, by the time the collectors came round.

And while I'm about it, noone has mentioned the two songmakers I'd want on my desert island list - Vin Garbutt and Sydney Carter (and Sydney would fall into the list of people "who can make great songs that they can't sing as well as they need to be sung" - in spite of which I'd sooner hear him sing them than anyone else.)

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: John of the Hill
Date: 22 Nov 99 - 09:12 PM

I was feeling bad because I haven't written a song for a couple of years, but having read this thread I now realize I was helping keep the tradition pure.Now if I could only give up the lousy guitar or at least keep it in standard tuning. John

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Nov 99 - 11:43 AM

Terry, read the beginning of the post, it's more or less what I said 80 postings ago!!!

There are good SS's and bad SS's, the good ones learn by audience reaction and the bad ones don't. Evolution will dispose of them, as evolution is wont to do. We usually refer to the omphalscopists as singing music to slash your wrists to. The worst sorts of SS's are those who do a 4 song set when asked to do 2, and make sure that he last one is longer than the whole of Tam Lin!!

There is also the sort who suffer from what Micca calls "charisn'tma", and we ALL know someone like that!!! You know the sort of person, when two people are talking and one looks bored shitless, he is the other one. Sort of person who thinks they are the only person in the world to have ever lost their teddy bear.

I'm so encouraged that I may just go dig out all the crap I wrote 20 years ago and see if I can find tunes for any of it.

And just what is wrong with 'Puff the magic dragon'??!

LTS

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Bert
Date: 22 Nov 99 - 10:56 AM

Gary T, The feedback you get from S/S'er clubs is honest enough at the time it is given. You can applaud a particular effort and keep to yourself the recognition that this one is not going to be a great hit.

I usually think of these clubs as mutual admiration societies, but sometimes we need such places. It can help to show off a song for the first time to an audience that we know is going to be appreciative.

We learn much from the mistakes of others which we can put into practice with our own work. And if we are willing to accept positive suggestions, we can sometimes change a mediocre song into something fairly good.

Bert.

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Gary T
Date: 22 Nov 99 - 09:55 AM

Good point, Terry. Sounds like your approach would work well in most settings. It occurs to me that most of the S/S's I hear are playing to an audience of other S/S's who are their companions, there to offer support rather than to be entertained. I doubt they get honest feedback.

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 22 Nov 99 - 08:34 AM

Gary T:

Yeah, I agree that there are songwriters out there who consistently spew crap, but eventually the Darwinian forces will remove their stuff from the vicinity...unless they have a really good record contract (which explains the Spice Girls, Michael Jackson, Garth Brookes, et al)...

The way I generally determine if a specific self-penned song really sucks is if after I've performed it at least a few times to the same basic audience (on different evenings, of course!),I still get NO reaction...as a general rule, the audiences are very good about letting S/S's know, usually in no uncertain terms!

The will of the people must be respected!

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: lamarca
Date: 21 Nov 99 - 11:38 PM

Then there's guitar styles...As someone who doesn't play, I don't have the right vocabulary to describe playing styles, but it seems that every era had a particular strumming pattern or style that all the less creative musicians would just fall into. These days, there's a couple predominant styles or riffs I keep hearing over and over ("DA-da, da-DA-da-da-da" or "Slap! da-da-DA-da-da-da" repeated over and over as a rhythmic undercurrent for the lyrics, rather than an actual finger-picked melody or arpeggio accompaniment) . When lots of contemporary S/S's use similar guitar strums for their songs, it helps you lose focus on the lyrics and makes them start sounding "all the same". Maybe Rick understands what I'm trying to say and can phrase it better.

One thing I loved about Joni Mitchell's early songs were her intricate and unusual guitar accompaniments. Gordon Lightfoot, James Taylor and Cat Stevens all had great guitar melody lines, too.

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Nov 99 - 08:59 PM

Frank, one more thing I forgot to add to my last posting was that even listening to how someone like Cat Stephens used to use melody and chord structure, let alone the fine composers you mentioned would help avoid the "boring tune syndrome".
Rick

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Nov 99 - 12:16 AM

Thank you Jeri & Kat for your kind words & Kat I'd share my kids with the rest of ya but they're very fast runners at the sound or mention of folk music, maybe someday. I'm just tickled that, at 10 & 12 they're both taking up instruments (probably to drown out Dad).
Hi Frank, another S/S that started as a teen, who I still to this day play maybe once a week is Laura Nyro, she was great even though maybe quasi-folk (I always thought of her as inner city folk).
Part of what I hear alot that drives me nuts is when the singer is or seems to be more important than the song. I've never heard the "4 Bitchin Babes" before but I hear about them being all over the place & how wonderful they are, so when they came on the radio just when I was getting out of the truck to go to work I stopped for a listen. I don't even remember what they sang, the harmonies were pretty good but the song really sucked, I thought what shit, they must have a great PR person or must be very very good at it themselves to have successfully pawned this crap on the public (OK you can all start beating me when this gets posted).
Lamarca & a few others posted about the repercussions the S/S have had on not only the traditional music but on folk music in general. I've always thought that in order for the S/S to get exposure, airplay, sell CDs or just gigs that they would sell themselves short & cheap. I don't know what put the Esteidford (bad spelling) under here in New England but it was once a great festival, then maybe 10 or 15 years ago they started bringing in S/S & dropping the caliber of talent they were known for. I saw Peter Bellamy there, Joe Heany, Frankie Armstrong, the Fisher family, Norman Kennedy & a just a whole world of other great people (not slighting us Yanks it's just that the real good ones were very common there) & it was just a friendly & a close festival. Then came the S/S (dum da dum dum) & eventually I couldn't be bothered going anymore along with alot of others I knew. Then not to long ago they seemed to have redirected the festival, maybe back to the way it was or at least towards a middle ground. So I went for the last few years & it was improving but I don't think it could pull itself up by the bootstraps anymore. Sandy or others let me know if you have any info on this, as this is only what appears to me & I don't know if this was really part of their dimise or if it just appeared to me that way. Barry

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 20 Nov 99 - 11:26 PM

Another point wonderfully made Frank. Once in a while someone comes along who transends our arguments. But just once in a while.
Also you mention different influences...That's the main problem as far as I'm concerned. The influences are extremely narrow (singer songwriters who've made it big) and the desire to get one's story out there totally supercedes the desire to dig a little deeper - which takes time and effort.
The vast majority of submissions I get for my radio show are
1. Young women completely influenced by: Ani Di Franco, Mary Chapin Carpenter, Loreena McKinnet, Joni Mitchell, and Emmy Lou Harris.
2. Young (and not so young) men completely influenced by Dylan. Period.
3. Celtic/Rock hybrid bands.

You just get sick of it. It's all good - just not as good as the originals. When I receive an album showing even some knowledge of the folk tradition (which to me indicates an investment) I play the hell out of it on the air. Folk audiences in Toronto knew very little of Art Theime, Jerry Rasmussen, Harvey Andrews, or even The Patons a while ago, and now I get requests for all of those people. I'm hoping it will be the same with Kendall, and some other traditionally based musical "catters" over the next year.

Rick

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Frank Hamilton
Date: 20 Nov 99 - 10:11 PM

Jeri, I feel the same way you do about 20 somethings but it humbles me to realize that Joni Mitchell wrote "Clouds" before or during her 20's. Maybe not everyone will agree with me that this is a wonderful song. Can't say I like her todays stuff, though. When Janis Ian wrote "Society's Child" as a teen-ager, I was rather moved by that song. Once in a while seemingly age-less songwriters come along.

I think the problem is that the Singer/Songwriter has been boxed into certain kinds of tunes with reflective lyrics and an antidote for this would be if the S/S would take up another instrument such as jazz piano or accordian. The Berrymans impress me as interesting S/S because they are witty and not given to the usual S/S sound. Maybe an S/S might try accompanying themselves on just an accoustic bass. This is one way to find out if the song holds up. Even an acapella S/S might find a niche. It worked for traditional folk singers.

I think one of the problems with the S/S's today is that the melodies tend to become similar to one another. I would like to hear some songs in different time signatures such as 9/8 or even 12/8. The melodies of today's singersongwriters are up for comparison with the likes of George Gershwin, Richard Rodgers, Cole Porter, Hoagy Carmicheal and Berlin. The S/S lyricists are up for comparison to Johnny Mercer, Berlin, Porter, Yip Harburg and the great musical theater writers of the past. Did I forget Stephen Sondheim and Tom Lehrer?

It would be well if S/S's on this side of the pond were to study the songwriting of the Nuevo Cancion in Latin America or the modern songwriting of Africa or India. It would knock the S/S'ers out of the musical box they seem to find themselves in.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: MAG (inactive)
Date: 20 Nov 99 - 07:19 PM

Oops; as soon as I sent it off, I realized I had Kris running through my head. Sorry. MA

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: MAG (inactive)
Date: 20 Nov 99 - 07:13 PM

Didn't Broadside Balladeers make a penny or three peddling broadsides and singing in the streets, once upon a time? SOME of those have become trad...

And it wasn't old Mr. anonymous who wrote "If I had a hammer," or "Old devil time."

As far as thw twa Gordons, "Truning toward the Morning" beats out "That's what you get for lovin' me" every time. (But Song for a Winters night is OK.)

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Nov 99 - 02:17 PM

Oh gawd.........I hear knocking.............oy.........

Spaw...& you're right BB (Thanx for the note too)

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 20 Nov 99 - 01:43 PM

How can one judge?
If I am moved by Puff the Magic Dragon I don't care how it became popular or the depth it reached in complexity and creativity. Nor am I concerned what other musical minds would think.
The important thing is, the song touches my heart.

Banjo Bonnie

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Burled Ives
Date: 20 Nov 99 - 01:17 AM

Listen Catspaw you smartass, you haven't a clue who I am, cause (until tomorrow) I'm invisible. So if you aren't going to contribute anything negative about singer-songwriters, why don't you just go to bed before you start annoying the Aussies. (they'll be here any minute.) While I'm untraceable, I'm going to take a huge risk here. I own TWO James Taylor albums!
Seriously though, I think Mary's point about folkies wanting a kind of "exclusivity" with their favourite performers (or songwriters) is spot on. I have to admit that when I first discovered folks like Robert Johnson and Bill Broonzy, I liked the fact that no one else at my school had ever heard of them. I NEEDED that exclusivity to feel "different" which was darned important to me at the time. If you were not very good at being "part of the crowd", then starting your "own crowd" (even if it had just one member) was the next best thing. After a year or so, no power on earth would have made me want to join the mainstream 'cause I had "friends on vinyl". My song off the new album "Gin Mill Syncopators" is about that time.
I still have some huge "obscure " songmakers that I love, like Norm Hacking, Bob Coltman, Jerry Rasmussen, Rick Speyer and Joe Hall. But I'm secure enough now to REALLY wish these guys would have hit records and make a million.

Pat "Banjo" Patterson

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Nov 99 - 12:44 AM

Are you going to see a shrink about this identity crisis or just start hangin' with garg?

Just curious...........

Spaw

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Boxcar Waillie
Date: 20 Nov 99 - 12:14 AM

Some wonderful points Mary (and thank you for the inclusion). Personally I would see the twa Gordons as absolute masters of songmaking. The fact that Mr. Lightfoot scores those Streisand, Elvis, Marty Robbins and PP and M royalties obviously makes his bank account swell, but I can assure you, not his head. Granted I certainly CAN be a folk snob (on a bad day) but even Multi-millionaires like Paul Simon, Bobby, and Cat Stevens (oops, he's probably given it all away) have written magnificently in folkish styles. Nope, it's the folks with much attitude and little experience that I find tedious. BUT here's the part that makes any (and certainly my) argument just plain meaningless: friends of mine who've known them say Dylan and Simon had astonishing gall and aggressiveness in their youth. So would I have felt they were not worth the trouble then? I didn't. I thought they were both exceptionally talented...so I guess I'm just full of hot air on this one. I'm now going to coin my own little buzz thing: S.S.S. (SELECTED singer songwriters!..who, when I'm feeling grumpy..I'll dump on!
Tammy Lin

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Gary T
Date: 20 Nov 99 - 12:10 AM

Terry, it's certainly true that songs have to be written to be sung--that's what songwriters do for us. The problem with singer/songwriters is that while a singer will typically pass on a crappy song that someone else wrote, some singer/songwriters will perform a crappy song they wrote themselves, because they don't see how crappy it is. If they didn't sing their own songs, the lousy creations would never see the light of day, because no one else would sing them on a bet. Not to say that all s/sw's sing third-rate stuff, but apparently enough of them do to fuel this thread.

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 20 Nov 99 - 12:05 AM

Mr. Potato Head, I've been looking all over for you

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: sophocleese
Date: 20 Nov 99 - 12:04 AM

Who cares? I'm doing it! Just watch for potholes.

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Nov 99 - 11:52 PM

No Markie it ain't....But you see my computer crashed on me trying to load....HEY...You're just the person to sing "Memory Banks of Mudcat"....I'll refresh it right now so you can check it out...Okay?

Spaw

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: lamarca
Date: 19 Nov 99 - 11:48 PM

Gee, Spaw - I'm not doin' so bad considering I'm typing on several glasses of Banrock Station (Australia's finest cheap white wine, fondly referred to as "Van Ronk Station" in our house). I've almost managed to yank this back to "What is folk music"...Is it illegal to drive drunk on the Information Superhighway?

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Nov 99 - 11:43 PM

Well Mary, at the risk of tubes and hoses up my keister, I couldn't agree more. But I must say I feel the next bit coming. Kat asked me about this thread before she started it and I told her almost exactly what you said so well. But I also told her it was inevitable that the Folk vs Folk-Like thing would come up and although it hasn't quite made it yet....I think it may be about to knock on the door.

I now withdraw this post also...I hate those lower GI's!

Spaw

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: lamarca
Date: 19 Nov 99 - 11:31 PM

Wasn't that the "Afro-Celt Sound System's" newest band member, Rick?

Part of the bias against some singer/songwriters in the "folk" world seems to be correlated with how successful they become. If a songwriter becomes a financial success, it indicates TOO many people like them, thus eliminating the attraction of "more esoteric than thou", an affliction which is shared by many in trad. music circles. Thus, a songwriter like Gordon Bok is somehow "better" than Gordon Lightfoot, because too many people know and like Lightfoot and he's made too much money...Gordon Bok is more obscure, and some folkies can feel they're more "special" for knowing and appreciating his music.

For me, there are several different types of S/S's that I like. My favorite songwriters write songs that are patterned after or show a knowledge of traditional song forms, paint a picture or tell a story that's vivid, have an interesting melodic line and are capable of being interpreted or sung by other people. Ewan MacColl, Gordon Bok, Rick Fielding, Bob Zentz, Joan Sprung, Stan Rogers are all examples of writers who can/have done this. However, I can also appreciate songwriters who write very descriptive, literate songs that usually ONLY they can carry off. For example, I like Joni Mitchell's writing quite a lot, but don't often hear other people's covers of her songs that sound "right". She is very successful in songs like "Refuge of the Road" or "A Case of You" in painting very vivid pictures and emotions that other people might call "omphaloscopic" - but I still enjoy listening to her. Jan Harmon wrote in so many wonderful different styles, and painted beautiful pictures with words, but I don't think her songs will ever be mistaken for traditional material. They are still wonderful and precious to me.

I think the problems with "the dreaded singer/songwriters" occur in folk venues, when people writing their own material get gigs in preference to people performing traditional material, so there is a sense that SS's threaten the tradition - a threat that isn't imaginary. The blurring definition of "folk" that includes anyone performing with an acoustic guitar, regardless of whether they have any knowledge of traditional music, will result in a casting a wider net for mediocrity. Every mediocre-to-poor songwriter who gets a gig leaves one less gig for a performer of traditional music. The bias against SS's seems to result from the impression that even the most talented traditional performers can't compete with the sheer numbers of mediocre songwriters...

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Nov 99 - 11:29 PM

Glad you told us Turnip Brain.....I was kinda' thinkin' it was Mick.

Spaw

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Mr Potateau Head
Date: 19 Nov 99 - 11:17 PM

There really IS a band called "Afro-Celt Soundsystem"?
By the way, it's me (rick) trying to adjust to some new Netscape something or other that Ducksass got installed this afternoon. I don't recognise anything anymore. Damn this technology!
Spuds MacKenzie

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Nov 99 - 11:04 PM

.......and if Sandy doesn't have carry it, do you think Wally does?

Spaw

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Nov 99 - 11:04 PM

Rick, did you call it "Afro-Celtoid" before you'd heard of Afro-Celt Sound Sysem?

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Nov 99 - 11:02 PM

OOO, WOW...COOL.....Rick, do they have a CD? Does Sandy carry it do you think? Why is there no Tiple player though?

Spaw

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 19 Nov 99 - 10:56 PM

Look, if your gonna use my term "diarysingers" which is admittedly cruel and caustic, although not conceived in malice, just a part of my weird sense of humour, start using Sandy Paton's WONDERFUL term for writers you like: "SONGMAKER". It means someone who pulls a bit from here, a bit from there, uses a tradition that they've become at one with, and creates something wonderful. By the way, everyone here IS tongue in cheek aren't they? Every standard used in rating art is STRICTLY subjective. I mean , the Patons are two of the finest folks I've met in the known universe, and they think Dylan and Cohen write drivel. Gotta play Bobby's "Blind Willie McTell" for Sandy. It makes me cry, it's so fucking good.

By the way, it was Sue Goldberg who coined "omphaloscopist", and she had a smile on her face at the time! It's fun to make up words. About three years ago when I was getting thoroughly bored with Irish-hybrids I started introducing songs on the radio show as being Afro-Celtoid, Mari-Celtoid, Mexi-Celtoid, and Carib-eltoid. It caught on in Toronto. Nobody knew I was kidding. My fave though is "CaribAfroMexiMariCeltoid". Naturally that's a band with conjunto accordion, Cape Breton fiddler, thumb piano playing O'Carolan tunes to a reggae beat. Just hope they don't add a didjeridoo!
Rick

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Joan
Date: 19 Nov 99 - 10:53 PM

Been following this thread, but hesitated to put in my two cents--since sometimes I'm a singer-songwriter and thought I'd lurk and see what people said. I've been singing the "old songs" since I was a kid, but I'm also a writer, and Words R Me. Occasionally I have something I want to say and my homemade songs are adjuncts to the traditional and schmaltzy songs I love. Some of the songs I made are now like the toothpaste that got out of the tube, and others sing them and are welcome to them. Neat. They're NOT omphaloscopic (which I label bellybutton songs), I don't think--yet what I write has to be based on my experiences and perceptions since I don't have anybody else's to base them on. On the other hand, there ought to be a bit of judgement here, as to how personal to make the song, and can our particular story be couched in ways that would apply to us all. Besides the musical, there's the literary aspect, and songs that make you yawn or blush probably have pretty bad writing in them. You'd put a novel down in a hurry if it made you bored or embarrassed. Whew...guess I ran off at the fingers!

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Nov 99 - 08:28 PM

Jeri, thanks for the link to Barry's song; made me cry! What wonderful lyrics and what a story. Bravo, Barry!

Subject: RE: What's so bad re' singer/songwriters?
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 19 Nov 99 - 07:36 PM

Substitute "composed" or "created" for "written" in above observation, just for the songs not physically written per se...off to tonight's gig....ciao!