How much Folk Music is there?

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: joseph
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 07:40 AM

There is so many folk songs in Ireland alone That it would take me five lifetimes to learn them all. not vwith standing all the English,Scottish ,American,etc.It's nigh impossible to say how much there is.

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Sep 07 - 09:23 AM

A discussion about the song JOHN THE REVELATOR includes this excerpted post:

Subject: RE: ADD: John the Revelator ^^
From: WYSIWYG - PM
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 09:08 AM

This is an example of how a spiritual can pop out of the past. I can't know for sure if this IS one of those, but it illustrates the difficulty of "tracing" an "attributed" song. It also evinces the musician's approach of just DOING it and not worrying about the origin because (A) the song stands on its own and (B) because the singer's relationship with the origin is an internal experience (and (C) sometimes a mystical one).

When I songlead/teach a spiritual or a song styled as a spiritual, I start out (just like Son does in this video), singing both the call and the response parts and using body language to point up which is which. Where Son leaves off in this video (because it is, after all, a performance), I go on (because I am, after all, songleading) to get the people involved in the responses.

For a performer it's the whole, many-layered experience of the performance that matters. For me, when I songlead, it's about the whole experience of the interactivity. "Interactivity" (what a sterile term for a richly organic complexity) was one of the main thrusts of the spirituals, among the people who originated them.... In that interactivity I feel (organically) the privilege of being able to share at least that much with the originators.


Further support for this view (of likely spirituals-originating material popping into mainstream culture later) can be found in the work of the late JOE CARTER, especially in an interview that includes songs, persectives, and how he remembers learning spirituals through family memories (referenced in the African American Spirituals Permathread).

Additionally, an early variant noted upthread is from the same general time period as the The John and Ruby Lomax 1939 Southern States Recording Trip (a Library of Congress collection also referenced in the African American Spirituals Permathread): The fieldnotes, prepared by John and Ruby Lomax during and shortly after their 1939 recording trip in the South, contain their itinerary, notes on the geography and culture of the regions visited, biographical and anecdotal information on some performers, historical and descriptive information on some recordings,excerpts from correspondence, lists of song titles, typed portions of song text, and handwritten song text. During that time period-- within the life span of former slaves-- a lot of songs were shifting out of memory and into the growing Black Gospel and Blues traditions. There are MANY songs first accepted in widestream culture as "blues" that have turned out, with later attributive detail added, to have been based on/extended textually from spirituals.

The Fort collection of that time period is further contemporaneous illustration.

My point is not that these can be "proved" as spirituals, but that an early recording or text date syaing otherwise does not DISPORIVE them as spiritualks, and that we, at this point in time, cannot know for sure because the genre defies rigid definition. To attempt to "definitively" say that any given song is not a spiritual or based heavily upon one textually and melodically is, IMO, revisionist and anachronistic and to rely on fragmentary "evidence" as though it is the whole story.

But we know, from thread after thread, in every kind of folk subgenre I can think of, that even when someone has written in their diary, "I wrote such and such today," there is often an earlier influence, source, or fragment involved that comes to light later. This can happen innocently or not innocently... there are examples of artists who have put a song into the record in some way, and claimed royalty rights by attaching their name-- this was not the same terrible plagiarism we might think of today, but fairly relaxed practice in the dawn of the popular recording industry.

Again, my point is just that we can never be sure we have the whole story on a folk song-- that's part of what MAKES it a folk song! And that therefore, we can never be sure we have them all.

~Susan

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Sep 07 - 02:09 PM

There is still fresh material being collected,an international approach is healthy.Alan Lomax tried this approach successfully 30 to 40 years ago.The likelihood is the more remote an area,the more success you will have in finding it[but keepaway from the Borneo HeadHunters]
Dave,a lotof people on this forum[including yourself]have a nom de plume,I assumed Malcolm Douglas was a nom de plume,I have apologised.
You in your ignorance accused me of talking nonsense[the subject was did Glor na Gael organise music competitions]I pointed out to you that I had Judged at two such competitions ,so they do .
I gave my apology,I am still waiting for yours.

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Sep 07 - 04:44 AM

I read this on another thread:

This forum bans (some) female protagonists for being overtly contentious. Please ban this silly captain person. He seems to bring out the worst in everyone with his obvious need for self-important confrontations. And his English/grammar/typing skills/coherence/argument diminishes as the whisky bottle empties.
Leave him alone - he might go away.

I am not in favour of bans. But I must agree with the last sentence.

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 06:34 PM

Every time I go to a folk festival I see children playing. Folk Arts England encourages them.

I said it was to raise money or to promote the Irish language.

Glad you agree with me. ..were designed not to raise money,but to encourage Irish traditional music/song and the Irish language

If the organisers of Clor na nGael believe I have insulted them let them get in contact with me Dick.

Dick you were the man who thought the highly respected fiddle player, author and post office worker - Malcolm Douglas, was the highly respected librarian at the RVWML - Malcolm Taylor.

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 05:56 PM

no, again you show your ignorance,
The Glor na gael competitiions, I judged were not that,they involved people from the whole county[county Cork is the largest county]and were designed not to raise money,but to encourage Irish traditional music/song and the Irish language.
You have already insulted the organisers and the participants,by saying they probably organise beetle drives,[How Patronising and uninformed]
what you cant get in to your head is that Glor Na Gael,Comhaltas,and the GAA Scor[the last two organise national competitions]are responsible to a large extent for the extremely high standard of Irish song music and dance among children and teenagers.
Would you not like to see the children of England enjoying traditional music,and getting the satisfaction of acquiring musical skills,if you do then think about it,it may not be ideal but it works.

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 05:14 PM

Glor na nGael is a government-funded programme to support the Irish language. It may as I said do this in a number of ways - but it is a programme to support the Irish language. That's what it says on its website and I believe it. It does it by having a series of local committees.

If you say you judged music competitions I believe you did so - but they were local music competitions designed by local committees to raise money in all probability, or to raise the profile of the Irish language.

Why not offer them your £200.00? I am sure they would appreciate it and the EFDSS might then see what they missed.

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 12:53 PM

Apologies,to both Malcolms.
Folkie Dave,the pot calling the kettle black,what was that about Glor na Gael ,Never organising music competitions.

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 11:34 AM

You have the wrong Malcolm there, Dick.

Malcolm Taylor is the librarian at the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library, based at C#House.
Mary.

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 11:20 AM

It is not ignorance and nor is it a matter of opinion it is simply a matter of capital letters. However punctuation and grammar are not your strongest points, so you probably are unaware of the difference. I refuse to waste my own time any further.

I have criticised EFDSS in the past.Malcolm is the librarian at CecilSharpHouse,you too are a member.

I am sure Malcolm Douglas - who lives in Sheffield and is a fiddle player and works for the Post Office - is delighted to be mistaken for the librarian at the RVWML at Cecil Sharp House.

Whether Malcolm Taylor OBE the librarian at the RVWML at Cecil Sharp House is equally delighted we can only guess.

Give up Captain - you are not very good at this.

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 11:03 AM

In my opinion it is not meaningless.
I am only wrong in your opinion,and that is because you have an axe to grind.,your opinion on this and other matters such as Glor na gael[where you really exposed your ignorance.]are of no interest to me.
I have drawn attention to the musical traditions site , I have credited Mike Yates,hopefully more people will read other articles there.
I have criticised EFDSS in the past.Malcolm is the librarian at CecilSharpHouse,you too are a member.

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 09:25 AM

Malcolm was complaining about you asking him to cut and paste the whole article. He was right and you were wrong.

Saying it is from musical traditions as you did without capital letters is meaningless. It is not a recognised form of citation - except possibly by you.

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 08:52 AM

get Your glasses nitpicker.
I have already credited it as an article in musical traditions,with the author and the date.

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 10:02 PM

Certainly not; that would be an infringement of copyright, and inexcusably discourteous.

On the subject of discourtesy, when you quote from others, you have a duty to ensure that you do not misrepresent them. This usually requires that you read and understand what they have said before trying to use them to support whatever argument you are trying to make. Perhaps you ought to try doing that. It might be a new experience for you, and I'm sure that you would find it educational.

Since you didn't bother to provide a proper reference, I should add that Mike's article can be read in its entirety at Musical Traditions:

Bob Blake and the re-invented self.

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 08:49 PM

Malcolm ,if you dont like it paste the whole article from musical traditions website.

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 08:32 PM

Dick:

You've quoted Mike Yates selectively and, I feel, misrepresent the point he was making by taking it out of context. That seems to be a habit of yours. However, it doesn't have anything to do with my earlier comments in any case. Perhaps you have confused me with somebody else? That wouldn't exactly be unprecedented, either.

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 06:24 PM

QUOTE: "and not in some sort of rustic, rural, mystical, ethnic trance"...

Having said that, that's a state I'd quite like to find myself in!

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 05:46 PM

Cap'n,

I expressed MY view of traditional singers as follows:

"In fact my impression is that many traditional singers were highly intelligent men and women who learned their songs from a variety of sources ..." (my post, 13 Sep 07 @ 10:27 am).

And I'm pretty certain that they did it CONSCIOUSLY and not in some sort of rustic, rural, mystical, ethnic trance.

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 04:40 PM

I see them as singers who learned their songs orally from their families or friends in their local community.

Are you saying what they sang was unimportant, so long they learnt it like that?

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 12:25 PM

Shimrod,you are being presumptious ,when you say Presumably you think of them as illiterate ,Apple cheeked Rustics,Presumably means youare making presumptions.
you are also associating rustics[people that live in the country] with being illiterate.

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 12:09 PM

Cap'n,

I don't believe that I was being presumptious. It was you who talked about trad. singers not having to CONSCIOUSLY revive a song. The use of that word implies to me me that you think of them as in some way acting by instinct rather than design.

And I notice that you haven't addressed my point about you constantly confusing category and quality. Both traditional and revival singers can be brilliant or bad and speaking purely aesthetically it makes very little, if any , difference to which category a particular singer belongs.

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 10:42 AM

Shimrod ,dont be presumptious,
Isee them as singers who learned their songs orally from their families or friends in their local community.
Jimmy MCbeath Jack Elliot[Birtley] BobRoberts, Harry Cox,all traditional singers from different backgrounds.
I have never mentioned apple cheeked rustics.you are presumptious and insulting.
some traditional singers were and are also part of the revival,Fred Jordan,Willie Scott,Bob Roberts,Harry Cox,BobLewis JeffWesley.

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 10:27 AM

"To my way of thinking a traditional singer is someone who doesnt have to consciously revive a song."

There's a lot of patronising assumptions about traditional singers in that remark, Cap'n. Presumably you think of them as illiterate, apple-cheeked rustics who guilessly soaked up their songs at their mothers' knees (or something like that)? In fact my impression is that many traditional singers were highly intelligent men and women who learned their songs from a variety of sources (eg. family members, members of their own communities, people passing through their communities, broadsides and even books). I think that there may be a case to be made for seeing many traditional singers as amateur collectors who collected songs in order to build up their repertoires.

My view is that, in Britain at least, it is useful to categorise singers of tradtional songs under two broad categories:

(i) Traditional singers (who tended to be raised in a milieu in which the singing of traditional songs was relatively commonplace at some time in their lives and who learned their songs and singing styles from within that milieu).

(ii) Revival singers (who learned their songs during the post-War Revival. This was/is a traditional song singing milieu but it had/has no strong continuity with the past).

There are exceptions to these two broad categories (and Bob Blake may be one of them). There are also, of course, people who sing traditional songs which have been adapted to a classical music setting.

NONE OF THESE CATEGORIES TELL US ANYTHING, WHATSOEVER, ABOUT THE QUALITY OF THE SINGERS IN QUESTION!! Sorry to use capitals but this is a complete 'red herring' which you insist on raising in every one of your posts.

And there's no point in repeating the Mike Yate's quote ad-nauseum. That has been dealt with in another thread - which you started!

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 05:07 AM

Jim as far as I am concerned a traditional singer,is someone who has learnt his songs orally from his family or from his local environment.
If Walter Pardons family repertoire died out between the wars,and his repertoire was reconstructed painstakingly by Walter,[your words],he had to revive the songs,in the strict meaning of the words Walter was a Revivalist,his family songs had died out and he had to revive them.
To my way of thinking a traditional singer is someone who doesnt have to consciously revive a song.
I think what is more important is the calibre of the singer,Walter was a good singer ,so was Bob Blake,and here I would like to quote MikeYates[talking about Bob Blake]

"At the end of the day it doesn't really matter whether or not Bob Blake was a 'traditional singer'. Bob, I'm sure, was true to himself, and if a young, inexperienced song collector (i.e. me) was willing to impute a label onto Bob that, with hindsight, was probably inaccurate, then the egg is surely on my face! What really matters is the fact that Bob was a fine singer and luckily we did manage to record him singing some of the songs that he knew. Also, many people today want a world of certainties, a world where our every thought and desire can be seen in terms of black and white. But, of course, life is not like that and, kicking against this, we so often find ourselves suffering from the unsatisfactory nature of things. Bob Blake gave pleasure to many people by singing his songs. Singers like the Coppers, Bob Lewis and George Belton became his friends and accepted him as their equal. I'm glad that I met him and heard him sing, and, at the end of the day, that's what really matters to me.

Mike Yates - 8.8.06"
The above is from musical traditions.
Malcolm Douglas,I prefer Mike Yates,s take than yours .

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 03:18 AM

Cap'n,
I'm sorry, I can't follow your question at all.
Of course the Radio Ballads were for anybody who would listen to them, but in realistic terms the audience they got was mainly the one that was also keyed into traditional song and, hopefully, some of the people from the communities dealt with, (miners, Travellers,etc) or those who had a particular interest in those communities.
This has nothing whatever to do with the subject in hand - that of defining folk-song.
Every Traditional singer we have met has increased their repertoire in some way or another, quite often the reason for this has been that our interest has prompted them to dig into their memories for half remembered songs and re-construct them. Fred Jordan had a number of songs he learned from new in order to build his repertoire for club performances.
Walter first heard his family's songs as a child, at harvest suppers or at Christmas parties. He filled gaps in songs from books (occasionally he had only ever known a few verses of some, (in some cases, so had his sources - his uncles or his parents). The only song he learned completely from new was 'Topman and The Afterguard' because he believed the version he heard in the army was too 'obscene' to sing in public.
A traditional singer is, as far as I'm concerned, somebody who has come from a background where the tradition was active, a revivalist is a singer who has taken the songs up as an outsider ( a bit simplistic, but it'll do for this hour of the morning.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 07:53 PM

No, it isn't 'ludicrous'; the distinction is helpful if you know what you are talking about. The problem is when people insist on bandying about terms they clearly don't understand, and trying to base arguments on them without thinking the whole thing through first.

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 05:44 PM

Jim,perhaps you would answer my question anyway,who do you think Mccoll Parker and Seegers intended audience, were for the Radio Ballads.,and what do you think their purpose was in doing this production,do you think that they were only intending to broadcast to folk revivalists,or were they [as Ithink] aiming at a larger audience The general public aka the Folk.
These radio ballads although the creation of revivalists,in at least two instances,featured traditional singers Sam Larner [singing the fishing]and Belle and Sheila Stewart,Joe Heaney,Elisabeth and Jane Stewart[the travelling people]they were traditional singers,singing and talking about their lives,they were the ordinary folk,[ not revivalists although these are not some seperate breed],and I believe their intended audience was Joe Public as well as those already interested in Folk Music.
Sam larner, The Stewarts ,Joe Heaney are the folk,They are not artists scientists,and those characterised by this discipline[who you claimed earlier were the folk].
Finally you mentioned earlier I quote[Walter Pardon Family tradition died out sometime between the wars and his magnificent repertoire was the result of his own efforts in painstakingly reconstructing them].So he wasnt a traditional singer,any more than Bob Blake was?, did he or did he not learn his songs orally,or did he only learn some of them?,
However he made a conscious effort to revive them,that makes him also a revivalist.
It of course doesnt affect his singing ability,any more than it did BobBlakes[another excellent singer],It just shows how ludicrous this terminology revivalist and traditional singer is.

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 05:39 PM

We were there once many years ago (along with Tom Munnelly) and enjoyed it very much, but I have always worried that it would turn into a folkie event and spoil the local nature of it - hope this is not the case.

Well I am a folkie and I've been going thirty+ years. A definition of a local used to be one who could get in at the back door before the pub doors opened and stayed afterwards after they called time. After a few years the local MP invited me in through the back door. So I suppose I am a local. Actually I can see a carolling pub from my house and when fitter I always walked there. It is certainly part of my tradition and I would honestly say the "local nature" is only changing the nicest possible way Jim.

Always a problem with such a high profile event, but I have been fortunate enough to see the tradition change in front of me. I can remember three songs added to the tradition - by determined locals - who for example having been introduced to "Portugal" at the various bi-ennial carols festivals. So they brought it into the repertoire by learning the words, persuading the organist to learn it etc. etc. And the lead singers tend not to be folkies and would not go to any other "folk" event apart from the carols. Some of the locals sing at hunt suppers and shepherds meets.

In addition I have seen the repertoire change in another way, - with a change of organist a song called Swaledale came into the repertoire because when asked to sing, Albert Broadhead sang his favourite song. You'll find it listed in the latest books as the Swaledale "Carol".

I can also see words of carols changing. And there are lots of carols rarely sung - some still being written etc. etc. etc. Carols at the less high profile places have been revived and have used their own local carols, Grenoside and Thorpe Hesley for example.

I would suggest it is a perfect example of your definition as listed above and thanks for that - it made me think a bit.

Of course all the locals are miserable bastards and don't bother welcoming people - so it ain't much fun anyway. They only have Euro-fizz on sale and they put the prices up charging strangers 0.50p extra if they recognise them. Food? You'll be lucky? Lager? Served warm. Crisps - well you can get them if the landlord remembered to go to the Cash and Carry. Wine? Well he opened a bottle last Xmas so it won't have gone off yet.

Don't bother coming - you wont enjoy it.

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 04:32 PM

Cap'n,
Not sure what the Radio Ballads have to do with it, while they drew from the tradition for their inspiration they were creations of three revivalists, MacColl, Parker and Seeger.
The term 'folk' was never intended to apply to everybody. The standard dictionary definition gives folk as a specific group or kind – ie 'city folk', and folk music as 'music and song originating among the common people of a nation or region and characterised by a tradition of oral transmission and usually anonymous authorship'.
William Thoms, an English antiquarian, first applied the term to 'primitive' culture in 1846.
The Funk and Wagnall Standard Dictionary of Folklore says, "How well it was received is attested by its immediate and continued use. The word has established itself in several languages as the generic term under which are included traditional institutions, beliefs, art, customs, stories, songs sayings and the like current among backward peoples or retained by the less cultured classes of more advanced peoples".   
A bit patronising – but there you go.
In 1954 The International Folk Music Council adopted the following definition of folk music based on Sharp's Some Conclusions:
'Folk music is the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission. The factors that shape the tradition are: (i) continuity which links the present with the past; (ii) variation which springs from the creative impulse of the individual or the group; and (iii) selection by the community, which determines the form or forms in which the music survives.
The term can be applied to music that has been evolved from rudimentary beginnings by a community uninfluenced by popular and art music and it can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community.
The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character.'
Nowadays it's all academic as 'folk' culture has been replaced by a universal one which is more-or-less passively received rather than participated in. Folk music is now in the hands of a revival made up largely of outsiders who took it over and (hopefully) took responsibility for its well-being.
The above definitions are the ones we signed up for when we became involved in the revival and, as far as I'm concerned, any re-defintion has to be based on them.
It would be nice to think that people are queuing up round the block to get into our clubs, or buying our albums by the million, but it ain't like that unfortunately.
Jim Carroll
PS
Folkiedave; - What Adams didn't take into consideration was..... ah, sod it.
Sorry, meant to apologise for not including the Sheffield Carols in my list. I always think of them as a custom rather than songs, but that's not really fair.
We were there once many years ago (along with Tom Munnelly) and enjoyed it very much, but I have always worried that it would turn into a folkie event and spoil the local nature of it - hope this is not the case.

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 01:52 PM

Most unusually Jim Carroll With whom I normally agree is not entirely correct on this occasion. The answer is indeed 42.

You can in fact find it here.

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: Snuffy
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 01:25 PM

Or 42.

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 01:15 PM

Amos,
Thought it was seven (the answer to life, the universe and everything).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 09:19 AM

Well, it seems apparent, now that the dust has settled, that the answer is roughly eleven. Right? It's gotta be eleven.

A

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 08:11 AM

Someone, in a reply above which I can't find now, said

"for example you wouldnt see Bob Lewis or Dick Miles OR RonTaylor ,booked at Dartford folk club.,neither would you have seen WizzJones at Nottingham Traditional music club.
so why waste time on definitions,we can decide from looking at a guest list."

YES BUT......

I'm a folk dancer who goes to an occassional concert. I know what I like (Martin Carthy, Jim MaGeen, CHARM). But I don't know any of the names above. So the guest list is no help to me.
Definitions like "traditional" mean that I know what sort of thing I'm getting.
Not that I don't enjoy some recently written songs, but I wouldn't want to spend time at whole concert of them.

So back to my warhorse. People should be given as much information as possible (especially on Folk Festival Programmes). Those who are 'in the know' will know anyway. Those who don't know the kind of songs WLD sings or the kind of dance Hilary Herbert calls (challenging ones usually) need that information. I took my daughter and friend to Whitby this year and they found half of the programme unintelligible -"what is Playford, is it a concert, a dance or what?"

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 06:23 AM

Jim Carroll,the folk as I understand it,is the general public.
The point of the radio ballads,was to illustrate the conditions through song of working class people,these people were part of the working class ,working class heroes.
Since you knew, Maccoll.perhaps youcould tell us,what was his idea,behind the radio ballads,you are not going to say, I hope, that it was intended for artists and scientists and those who characterise that discipline,and not for the general public.
you see this is where,more commercial groups like The Spinners,Fairport ThinLizzie,Horslips have succeeded,they have reached out beyond Folk enthusiasts and brought the general populace in [yes I can think of six people of my acquaintance ,who have found an interest in music this way].

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 06:08 AM

Shimrod. I personally know people, my partner for one,who was introduced to folk music through Fairport Convention,and who became a very good player of traditional music,helping to run Dingles Folk club,Dancing and playing for New Esperance Morris, playing at many irish sessions and WHO is also featured on my latest cd. http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 04:52 AM

"Might I also suggest that there was some benefit to folk clubs from folk comedians,They brought more bums on seats,some of those bums,learned to appreciate,serious folk music,in the same way Fairport brought young people in through electric folk,who later went on and developed as traditional style musicians."

Ah, Cap'n - the old 'trickle down theory' (combined with the 'arse education theory' - novel!) - I've never been very convinced by it myself. A competing theory might involve words like 'dilution' and 'marginalisation' (of folk/traditional music).

"It is for this reason that the "meaning of folk" is not just an academic discussion.This finacial consideration gives many people a vested interest in enlarging, or changing, the category of "folk" so that includes themselves, but not others."

Yes, Greg - exactly! Thank you for making this point so eloquently.

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 03:12 AM

Greg,
While I agree totally with what you say, your statement begs one question - who are 'the folk'?
By and large, it is the people working within a discipline, artistic, scientific, whatever, who define the characteristics of that discipline, not the general populace.
'Cap'n said,
'Jim Carroll ,I do find your information on WalterPardon interesting.
Cap'n
While you have the ill manners to discuss me, what you think I am or believe on an open forum as if I wasn't there, I don't give a toss what you find of mine interesting.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 09:42 PM

Susan, it's true that I'm not a musician and that I don't write from a musician's perspective. If I understood you correctly, thanks for the compliment that I write from a folklorist perspective.

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 07:43 PM

Azizi, I think you missed and/or misunderstood my main point upthread.

I agree with your statement: newly African American religious songs which "sound like spirituals" would not fit that definition and thus would also not be considered folk songs.

It's possible that to understand my point, one would have to be a musician; I generally write from a musician's perspective, not a folklorist's.

~S~

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:55 PM

However any if us define folk does not of course affect the quality of the music of the world in any significant way. It is rather similar to the obvious fact(that not everybody has grasped) that whether or not I believe in the existence of God does not actually affect whether God exists or not.
   There is, however, one glaring exception to the above(as it applies to folk music). If an arts administrator controls the allocation of funding to folk music, or if a company controls what music is played on a folk radio programme, then the belief of the people concerned can directly affect the popularity of the music. And in those cases, these definitions are of great significance, as it means one person can improve or destroy someone else's livelihood.
   It is for this reason that the "meaning of folk" is not just an academic discussion.This finacial consideration gives many people a vested interest in enlarging, or changing, the category of "folk" so that includes themselves, but not others. As anyone can observe, this is currently diverting financial resources from old-definition trad folk to new definition singer-songwriters with guitars. Whether this is a good, a bad or a neutral thing is a matter of taste. It may be that the only sensible action would be the abolition of the earmarking of grants, airtime etc to certain categories of music.
    In the longterm these matters will be of little importance. There is a divinity that shapes our ends, rough-hew them how we will: and in this case, the name of the divinity is "the folk".

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:54 PM

I agree,.
however when pressed ,nobody on this forum was able to define it exactly,.
there were a number of grey areas,some people thought footballsongs were ,some didnt, etc.
However I do not accept that only unaccompanied songs should be sung,although I am quite happy to [and enjoy it] perform unaccompanied if that is what the organiser wants,neither do I think blues should be excluded.
Shimrod the point is,that within the terms folk club and folk festival,there are differences, Cropredy caters for a different audience than Whitby.
Might I also suggest that there was some benefit to folk clubs from folk comedians,They brought more bums on seats,some of those bums,learned to appreciate,serious folk music,in the same way Fairport brought young people in through electric folk,who later went on and developed as traditional style musicians.
The Spinners also brought a Lot of different people in.
I do not find the IFMC definition authoritative or convincing,nor do I believe anything goes.
The market generally sorts itself out[and the guest list gives a pretty good indication of what to expect ]for example you wouldnt see Bob Lewis or Dick Miles OR RonTaylor ,booked at Dartford folk club.,neither would you have seen WizzJones at Nottingham Traditional music club.
so why waste time on definitions,we can decide from looking at a guest list.
Jim Carroll ,I do find your information on WalterPardon interesting.

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:38 PM

Sminky: of course folk songs can be accompanied on an acoustic guitar(an instrument on which I play to earn my living, so I naturally agree). But it is a logical fallacy to say: because a folksong may be accompanied on an acoustic guitar, therefore a song accompanied on an acoustic guitar is a folk song.

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:12 PM

Sorry to be a pain (well, I'm not sorry really!) but definitions ARE important. How on earth can we answer a question like "How much Folk Music is there?" if we don't know what folk music is?
I've never been happy with this idea that if you label/define something you somehow diminish it. Just as a 'non-folk' example of why this attitude is wrong, at this moment in history we appear to be losing thousands of species from the biosphere and not being able to identify/name them will contribute nothing, whatsoever, to saving them from extintion.

I also suspect that those who insist that there is no acceptable defintion of folk song/music (in the face of the highly authorative and convincing IFMC definition, for example) are guilty of mis-direction for their own purposes. In the Introduction to the new publication, 'The Folk Handbook' (Backbeat, 2007) Vic Gammon writes, "It [the post-war Folk Revival]also produced some unexpected spin-offs, including a whole group of comedians who honed their craft in folk clubs, ...". My belief is that people like these comedians benefited from the lack of widely accepted definitions within the Revival because folk clubs were the most accessible platform for their ambitions at the time. It was in their interest (and the interest of other ambitious but marginal performers) to spread the idea that "all music is folk music' and that, therefore, 'anything goes in a folk club'. Sadly, this pernicious myth lives on and is oft-repeated - all too often on this board ...

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 04:07 PM

Jim,You remind me of the reason why I prefer to sing songs, rather than listen to people pontificate, endlessly about the unimportant.
In literary terms you are rather like a cross between Pooter,Gradgrind,and PoohBear.
Being The butt of your wit, is rather like being under attack from a dead Dodo.

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 03:25 PM

Here we go again.
There is, and has been fr a long time, a perfectly workable definition of the term folk song, that of the IFMC,- go and look it up. If you disagree with it, suggest changes, or even a new one.The fact that people choose to ignore it is really their problem.
Not wishing to promote the article wot I rote, but suggest you read my reply to Mike Yates' The Other Songs (entitled 'By Any Other Name' I think, on the Musical Traditions website.
Folkiedave is of course quite right; the question of definition is certainly not a new one.
Sminky wrote
"They never were. And neither am I. And neither should anyone else".
Surely whether people should be interested in defining folk song is purely a matter for themselves. I have occasionally been accused of being a member of the 'Folk Police' (nasty vaccuuous litle term that!), but I can't recall ever telling anybody what they should or should not be interested in.
Azizi, thanks for that information
Cap'n, as much as I enjoy our little set-to's, you quite often remind me of one of those wasps that find their way into the car around the end of October; do dozy to do any real damage, but irritating enough to become a regular pain in the arse. Please desist or I will be forced to turn you into a pillar of salt.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 01:57 PM

Yes mted, so the performers opinions are as valid as the collectors.
One of the daftest definitions of traditional song I ever heard was this, traditional is everything before 1900 , after it is not .

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 01:53 PM

Jim Carrol, with regard to your comment:

Childrens' songs certainly have proved a rich source in the past, but I am not sure how much the one-to-one nature of mobile phone texting has affected the the communal communication that once went on in the schoolyard - I hope it still goes on.

Children are still creating rhymes. However, text messaging is definitely changing the way that children/youth write down the rhymes & cheers that they say and do. Transcriptions by children & youth of this material from their head to the Internet, shows a widespread pattern of using elements of short cut texting such as abbreviated words, and the use of letters and numbers in place of words {such as "b/c" for "because"; "u" for "you" and "4" for "for" or "four"}. What is also very common is the practice of writing lyrics in essay style with run on sentences and very little punctuation and capitalization or inconsistent use of punctuation and capitalization.

Here's an example from a message board page for children's rhymes:

brick wall waterfall girl u think u got it al but u dont i do so poof with the attitude poof i know karate i know kongfoo u mess with me ill use it on u bounce bounce goes the ball theres a baby cryin in the hall a couple bat hundreds of rat here comes mom screaming SCAT better run better hide so FREZE (then everyone frezes until theres only 1 person that hasnt moved

posted by ehren at April 8, 2004 http://blog.oftheoctopuses.com/000518.php

Also, see this comment that was posted with another example on that same website page:

( this is my version of the song ... plz dont take ne credit 4 it i made this part up myself so if you tell anyone about this verson b sure not to say u made it ) ... thanks .. i will give more comments & post more rymes & songs soon !

posted by Cassi at April 17, 2004

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 01:37 PM

With all due respect, Susan, with regard to African American spirituals, there are a number of religous songs being written in the formats of {pre-emancipation African American} spirituals. However, these types of religious songs composed after the end of the 19th century, are usually categorized as gospels and not spirituals.

If the definition for folk songs is songs which have no known composers, and also songs whose words have been re-worked as a result of the folk process, newly African American religious songs which "sound like spirituals" would not fit that definition and thus would also not be considered folk songs.

Here are two video examples of newly created songs which I think "sound like spirituals" but are categorized [by their composers and other African Americans and other folk] as gospel songs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QyVPKbZzww
Byron Cage - "The Presence of The Lord Is Here"

and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=on4nFUY8GEk&NR
Edwin Hawkin Singers-"Oh Happy Day"

And here is the lyrics of another song that seems to be written in as a spiritual:

SPIRIT OF DAVID {When The Spirit Of The Lord}
{Fred Hammond}

When the Spirit of the Lord comes upon my heart
I will dance like David danced
When the Spirit of the Lord comes upon my heart
I will dance like David danced

I will dance, dance, dance like David danced
I will dance, dance, dance like David danced

When the Spirit of the Lord comes upon my heart
I will pray like David prayed
When the Spirit of the Lord comes upon my heart
I will pray like David prayed

I will pray, pray, pray like David prayed
I will pray, pray, pray like David prayed

When the Spirit of the Lord comes upon my heart
[ Lyrics provided by www.mp3lyrics.org ]
I will sing like David sang
When the Spirit of the Lord comes upon my heart
I will sing like David sang

I will sing, I will sing, sing like David sang
I will sing, I will sing, sing like David sang
I will pray, I will pray, pray like David prayed
I will pray, I will pray, pray like David prayed
I will dance, I will dance, dance like David danced
I will dance, I will dance, dance like David danced

I will dance, I will dance, dance, dance
(Repeat)

-snip-

Here is that song as sung by the original group who recorded it but used as background to a youth group's dance group's video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZuKZyr54Eg&mode=related&search=

For contrast, here is the same song as it was sung during a Black church service:

When the Spirit of the Lord (Dance like David Danced)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQtYsaLpE4w&mode=related&search=

Note: that in the end of this video clip, the church slowed down the song's tempo and then eventually speeded it back up again and then slowed it down again a couple of times {changing tempos within a song is a custom that is used with many African American songs}.

These songs have known writers/composers, fixed words, fixed order of verses, and relatively fixed tune, and a relatively fixed tempo. This doesn't mean that no one is changing the order of verses or adding additional ones, or changing the tempo. However, fwiw, I wouldn't call these songs either spirituals or folk songs. I'd call them what their composers/writers calls them- contemporary gospel songs.

Subject: RE: How much Folk Music is there?
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 01:06 PM

The point is, Sminky--Sharp's "Killer Definition" is the body of material that he collected. And Child wasn't "wrong"what he collected, he has passed on to us, and what he didn't was left for others or lost-- Every collector knows what they want and what they don't want, and it's helpful for us to define that as much as we can, so we know what they've left for us.

It doesn't really matter what most people think a "folk song" is, because their opinions don't contibute anything to what's available. The opinions that count are those of people who are collecting, recording, publishing, transcribing, performing or otherwise documenting, because they are building the archive--