Folk Club Manners

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 26 Nov 13 - 05:24 AM

Guest. "'elitist' sounds a fair description to me".

I'm not sure whether you're the same 'Guest' who accused MacColl of sitting outside folk clubs until he was due to go on, or whether your comment about elitism refers to my refutation of that accusation. If not, then my apologies.

However, my use of the term elitist referred solely to this alleged habit. I was not referring to his attitude towards other singers, audiences etc. That is a completely different argument.

Please do not confuse the two. If indeed you have.

BTW. It would be extremely helpful if you identified yourself.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,musket
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 05:08 PM

I didn't set out to have a pop. This was towards the end of his time and he wasn't too well that night. During the interview he did speak of people seeing him in his classic pose of sitting the wrong way round in a chair holding fort. It does occur that if he were well enough he may have approached the evening differently. Peggy certainly performed a few more than normal on her own that night.

I have been on the receiving end of his sharp tongue mind. I did think it funny that he said singers should sing songs indigenous to them, then sang Scottish ballads in that odd yet nice affected Scottish accent that he picked up from school in er.. Salford. In the meantime he asked me why a Derbyshire lad living in Nottinghamshire would wish to sing a Somerset song.

Probably didn't occur to the old bugger that I liked it so wished to share it. ... or that as a miner still at the time, I wouldn't sing a mining song for all the beer in the cellar. Geography teachers and social workers were far better at singing of how hard it is downtthe pit than I could ever be. They could keep a straight face for starters. ..




I can hear you Mr Shaw, ,blaspheming again. We may have to set up a court with a gnome looking judge to sort out our differences if we are to con the world into buying into our new religion (see BS threads for anyone else reading this and scratching their head or arse.)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 03:19 PM

MacColl did a lot of good things & wrote some tremendous songs & for the most part I agreed with his politics, but he was very opinionated & his treatment of ordinary 60s folkies left a lot to be desired.. he might have been a champion of the 'People' (like Ho Chi Minh) but a man of the people he certainly was not- 'elitist' sounds a fair description to me

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 08:00 AM

I get angry when having to stand to let people get past five mins before the end of the football match too......

See it as an opportunity. Surely people-watching has got to be better than watching t'Owls... :-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 07:49 AM

"When McColl and Seeger played a folk club nearby in 1985 they had to be called upstairs for their two spots."
Interesting on two counts Musket.
For the reasons I said, MacColl usually insisted on staying through the whole proceedings of a club - his habit of remaining on stage during the interval was somewhat cattily described as "holding court"
He requested that members of the Critics Group followed the same practice and "let us know what's happening out there".
The fact of their having a driver also interests me as it was their practice to provide their own transport so as not to be tied down to leaving when their 'lift' did or of imposing on anybody to leave when they wished to.
One of the pleasures of their visits to Liverpool and Manchester was to get an eyeful of their beautiful old black French Citroen, complete with running boards.
It certainly wasn't because they were worried about the drink-drive laws - neither of them drank to excess while performing, Ewan usually confining himself to one pint throughout the evening
Peggy, on the other hand, was a fanatic about not drinking alchohol while singing because she insisted it ruined her singing voice.
I remember the hilarity on the night when the late Bruce Dunnet weaved his way through a crowded Singers Club, dubiously eyed her half full pint of water and asked, "Fid ye like me tae tap up yer glass o' gin there lassie?"
I would be very interested in the interview you recorded with them if it's still in existence Musket.
I'm still hoping to persuade Salford Working Class Library to add our collection of MacColl material to theirs in order to expand it into a full blown and accessible archive of his work in time for his 100th anniversary.
Still looking for a go-between in the UK if anybody is interested.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 06:02 AM

When McColl and Seeger played a folk club nearby in 1985 they had to be called upstairs for their two spots.

To be fair, before the first half spot, I was with them in the snug interviewing them, but were with their driver and others in their party sat having a soft drink before their second spot.

There were times when I was in a band where we may have been away from the concert room before coming on, but to be honest, it would have been that we hadn't seen each other for a few weeks and we needed to work out what we were going to do once up there. This was sometimes misconstrued. Sad because I always enjoyed the variety of floor turns before a paid guest.

These days, most "folk clubs" around are singarounds, and in open pubs. Fine, and I go to a few when time permits.   But I personally prefer the concert style in a function room.

I suppose it is the difference between performing and sharing songs. In the latter, it would be in my opinion very rude to ignore others, whereas the former allows for picking and choosing more.

How many of us have timed the downing of our pint to coincide with anticipating a person playing next who you reckon going to the bar is a better priority?

It's alright. I get angry when having to stand to let people get past five mins before the end of the football match too......

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 05:41 AM

"Re the mystery singer from Cornwall- Ewan MacColl used to do exactly the same thing- "
Never did - very seldom, if ever visited clubs casually - usually too busy - but would love to know where this particular legend came from - I'm collecting them with a view to compiling a book of them.
As much as I'd love a reference to MacColl borrowing a guitar, I'll pass on that one as his adventures as a guitarist are amply covered by Peggy in The Ewan MacColl Essential Songbook.
MacColl and Seeger made it a point to sit through all the performances wherever they were booked to play - not just out of good manners, which it is, but they were intensely interested in what was happening on the folk scene and constantly complained of ot having time to go and find out for themselves.
On the other hand, I was often an observer to visitors to MacColl's Singers Club turning up, requesting to sing and then returning to the bar, having asked the person on the door (usually my wife Pat) to "Give me a shout when it's my turn".
On the rare occasion their demand was complied with, they would go up, do their bit, then disappear into the night without bothering to find out what kind of club it was, leaving their name, "in case you want to book me".
Who cares who that mysterious singer was?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: IanC
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 04:58 AM

Sounds like the guy just had to rejoin his friends. Why put any other spin on it?

:-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 02:37 PM

Guest. I don't know where you got that from but I saw MacColl and Seeger perform in dozens of different venues on dozens of occasions.

I cannot remember either of them behaving in the elitist fashion you describe.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 12:20 PM

Re the mystery singer from Cornwall- Ewan MacColl used to do exactly the same thing- no, not sing the 'Wild Rover' but be in the room only when he was performing- so it's nothing new

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 04:02 PM

Was he the future of folk or the past(Y)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: melodeonboy
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 12:30 PM

Boom-boom!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 10:57 AM

Who was that mystery singer?

VT - that was the Lone Arranger.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 10:06 AM

This past Thursday our monthly folk club (Blackmore in Exhile, Rose and Crown, Writtle, Essex) was visited by a young musician from Cornwall.

He evidently was visiting friends who were in the pub proper downstairs and heard the club singing upstairs in the function room. He stood at the door for 1 or 2 songs after the mid session break, then asked is this a folk club? He went on to say that he was in a folk group from Cornwall, and could he sing one song.

The organiser and most of us welcomed him. He borrowed a guitar and proceeded to play and sing Irish Rover, encouraging the fiddler in our group to accompany. It was great. Then he asked "Can I do another?" Again most agreed. He launched into the Black Velvet Band. His enthusiasm was wonderful.

All the while he performed next to the doorway and did not enter the room proper. He then handed the guitar back after applause, said thanks and left. Felt a bit weird after the fact, as though he had highjacked the session for his bit and then was not interested to stay and listen to others. Then I figured he needed to join his friends downstairs again. Still it was strange.

Don't know if this was ill-mannered or not? I do wish he had told us more about himself, his name, whereabouts in Cornwall he was from, etc.

Who was that mystery singer?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 06:42 PM

I think that "open mic" implies amplification.

But I didn't come here to say that. I came to say this: -

I have today concluded that the music is not dying,

See my recent post here

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 10:02 AM

Will and Dave,
Thanks for that - I felt a bit like the judge who asked the jury during the Lady Chatterley trial - "and would you like to think that your servants had read this book?"
Much wiser now
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 07:37 AM

There are SOME open mics I have attended that seem to concentrate on new singer/songwriter music. I must add there are many I have been to as Will has described as well. It seems, to me at any rate, that the more traditional pub will put on the type Will describes - sometimes with keyboard/synth backing if required. Much akin to the old style pub singalong round the piano. If I go into Manchester, or any city, however, I have found open mics in contemporary city pubs and clubs tend to be much more a showcase for predominantly young and contemporary acts and bands.

Just an observation.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 07:16 AM

Open mic joke: A skeleton goes into a bar and says, "Pint of bitter and a mop please."

I'll just sneak out now...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 07:12 AM

Jim - should have added, of course, that some folk clubs also advertise "open mic" or "open stage" nights. The performers in these cases would be doing stuff in the context and environment of the club. We used to call these by that quaint old term "Come-all-ye"...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:57 AM

Jim - my definition (and here I open myself up to a possible hail of dissent), here in the UK, would be an event usually held in the bar of a pub, with the pub's customers on hand to watch and listen. An event where other customers come along and sing something, perform something, read something, tell jokes, do any kind of act that they choose. There's usually a performer/compere - paid or unpaid by the pub - who takes down names and introduces the acts.

No club membership - no entrance fees - no performing fees - no proscriptive genre - no prizes. Just step up with your performing frog and do your act. A chance for entertainers, in the broadest sense of the word, to try their act out on the public. Open mic = open to anyone and anything.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:45 AM

Can someone fully explain the term 'open mic' for me - it's one I hadn't come across pre-Mudcat?
Thanks,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 03:47 AM

Hi Ian - interesting perspective on the clubs. I must admit I was a little surprised by:

I've attended clubs in three parts of England as I've moved around, and found a common almost standard elite of bottom rung middle classes doing the same standard thing of endorsing thier chums and discouraging anyone who obviously didn't go to Teacher Training college.

Not surprised by your view of the class pertaining to some clubs, but by the "discouraging anyone who obviously didn't go to Teacher Training college" bit. I can't say that I've ever seen that particular attitude in any club I've been to, and certainly not in the sessions or singarounds I've attended. The hardest bit has often been to persuade younger or shyer or more inexperienced performers - or newcomers to the event - to get up and do a bit. To be honest, apart from immediate friends, I wouldn't know - or care - whether fellow performers had been to Teacher Training College (though I don't think such things exist now - they're all part of universities) or to prison.

Is there really a correlation between a club being welcoming or not, and the social makeup of its members? I've been in clubs with many different standards - some great, some crap - but not ever found one that was positively unwelcoming to a stranger. The usual comment I've had when I've done a spot has been, "Great to see you - do come again." (But we can't all be folk stars, can we... I'll get me coat!)

As for pub open mics - well, they really are a mixed bag, and I've certainly encountered the "do my spot and talk over the other spots" syndrome - but that's public bars for you. Take 'em or leave 'em.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,ian fyvie
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 08:41 PM

Had a scan through the last few weeks of this thread - a few points from different parts...

The class system has a lot to do with attitudes in English folk clubs compared perhaps with clubs as commented upon in Canada and Australia.

I've attended clubs in three parts of England as I've moved around, and found a common almost standard elite of bottom rung middle classes doing the same standard thing of endorsing thier chums and discouraging anyone who obviously didn't go to Teacher Training college.

The joke is that many of these types given the spaghetti style handclap are pretty mediochre singers but are of the right 'sort' for the organisers to quickly promote to 'Resident". This contributed, IMHO, to the decline of the folk movement as these attention seeking types impressed each other but scared away newcomers curious about folk clubs.

I won't indicate where the elitist clubs, but will name a few which I found friendly welcoming over the years (they may not exist any more); Oxford University FC - the opposite of what you might expect!, Ducklington FC - with Pam Ayres in attendance sometimes in those days; and the much mentioned Lewes Arms Folk Club which is effectively repairing the damage done over the years by these self admiring elites noted above by a welcoming approach and the workshops. There are more - but I'd say the balance in my years supporting Folk was sadly in the God's Gift direction.

The best way in my experience is to start your own based on your own values.

I'd mention also an observation from the last 18 months. I used to support bar sessions quite a lot which ran successfully while there was mutual respect for all singers. In later years a new ethos pervaded which seemed to be based on listening to your chums and talking over non chums. Two particular performers who where frequently 'talked over' in those later years moved on with the club to function room based venues. They have both improved greatly since being in an 'indimidation-free' atmosphere.


Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Rasener
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 12:25 PM

Hairy Mary likes a Brazilian

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 03:58 AM

"What part of "You are not in charge" don't you understand? "
The part that tells me that if I buy a tin marked baked beans, I don't expect to find rice pudding - otherwise I have been conned.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 05:26 PM

Oh dear I had really hoped to stay away.

Jim. When you pay for the venue, you can decide who goes on there (but nowhere else). When you don't, you can decide whether to attend or not, but your view of whether someone is "good enough" is neither here nor there. It's not up to you to decide. What part of "You are not in charge" don't you understand?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Aeola
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 03:47 PM

WF   That's what it's all about, and you can have a guest from time to time to ice the cake!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 04:12 AM

Well, I don't know about the state of folk clubs in general, but I thought I'd sample the monthly singaround at Charlwood (near Crawley) in Surrey yesterday evening. I went up with the intention of meeting up with an old friend - Wounded John Scott Cree - who I hadn't seen for over 25 years. John was there - just the same as ever - wonderfully funny and apparently unchanged.

However, I also took the opportunity to see what an evening at a strange session was like. And what a great evening it was. No charge on the door. Everyone sat round some tables placed end-to-end, with the overflow standing around us. The master of ceremonies conducted the evening with humour and gravitas - going around the company for a spot. There were songs from Sussex, songs from the locality "...collected by Rafe Vaughan Williams from Mrs. X's mother..." as one old boy said before singing it. Some lovely concertina playing by 'Catter Alan Day (thanks for telling me about the evening, Alan), and a wonderful comic rendition of "Hamlet" by a Scots lady with a broad Glaswegian accent! And, at the end, we finished off with ome carols and a spirited chorus of the Everley Brother's "Walk Right Back". The general standard of singing and performance was excellent.

If that's the state of folk gatherings at the moment, then it can't be all doom and gloom. I'll be back for another helping next month.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 03:26 AM

And furthermore in my view, that's the trouble with all you traddy types.

You enjoy fantasising and singing about 'Nutting Girls', but in actual fact when it comes time whip out the old giant cashews, you go all Doris Day - 'Oh Big Al! you don't really want me to do that with your nuts....'
'Yeh eat 'em baby!'

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 08:18 PM

'You're not a traditionalist at heart are you WLD?'

That is at the very kernel of the problem. Personally I think eclecticism can be taken too far when examining the parameters of nuts in folk music.

Take the Nutting Girl who went nutting down in Kent. Theres nothing in the song which denotes the type of nuts - they may have been hazel nuts, roast chestnuts, pickled Wallnuts, maron glace, beech nuts...

I always interpret when the dramatic moment arrives and 'she throws her nuts away' as a statement about working class people rejecting the bourgeois values of wealthy classes with their hands always in the Sainsbury's giant pack of salted cashews - but perhaps this is fanciful.

Even if you disagree and think the nuts in question were dry roasted, I believe there is room for all sorts of nuts in folk music.

I take your point about Brazil nuts being okay in a jazz club. It goes with that stan getz/Astrid Gilberto vibe - bossa nova, boys from Ipanema thing.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 07:30 PM

You're not a traditionalist at heart are you WLD?

I'm not sure a peanut should really be allowed in an English folk club. Hazelnuts and Chestnuts and Filberts I'm ok about but the peanut sits uncomfortably in a traditional setting. It doesn't seem right somehow - the dry roasted particularly which is a very recent style. Similarly brazil nuts are ok in a jazz club but not folk. I think I'd need to know what sort of nuts are available before I went. Having a club which just serves 'nuts' doesn't seem very clear to me as I could go along and any sort of nut could be served.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Aeola
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 05:34 PM

Ah Weelittledrummer ,, I think you've cracked it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 12:47 PM

Ah - but can you nibble nuts and sing at the same time? If so I suggest a joint career incorporating music and pebbledashing...

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 08:54 PM

I'd just like to say that when I'm singing, I positively encourage the nibbling of nuts. Dry Roasted, Cashews, Monkey Nuts, Ready Salted. I have incorporated these several traditional styles of nuts into my approach to folkmusic, because that's the only way the tradition will renew itself.

When it comes to nuts the bag has been opened, and it's no use pretending we can close it and go back to 1954.

Folk music needs youg people and their nuts.

Likewise the crinkling of crisp papers carries my enthusiastic endorsement, and I'd be offended if you didn't play with your guitar strap if you felt the need.

You see that's the kind of guy I am. I recognise the pressures young people are under

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tyke
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 08:14 PM

The late Richard Whitely, ex Lord Mayor of Giggleswick, presenting a possible Yorkshire Television item on Calendar to a shocked looking audience of senior citizens. I would speculate to be a turn up to play and then can you all join in on these boys and girls shock horror.

To be fair to YTV I have heard worse when the sound man at Blue Murder concert thought that the three cords that Martin Cathy was playing just to keep things together was the main attraction.

Needs must and I am about to dust of my Christmas Songs for use once again so that I do not have to read the words. But if I was throw together, as I expect they all were, I doubt if I could learn the words to a version of a carol spontaneously I would need the words.

Let's trust in some none performer to come up with singers night of ABBA songs. Sorry it's a pet hate of mine!

Please note that although some people think that singing Carols at other times than Christmas is unlucky. I have disproved this theory as when I went out Carol singing in July I found that every house that I call at told me that I would be LUCKY!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 05:16 PM

I'm with Captain Swing near the top of this post NOBODY has the right to be listened to. Yes I believe in being polite to people but if they're boring it's up to them learn how to engage an audience. Some people are just totally fucking inept and not worth listening to, it's up to them to learn rather than expecting people to fall over themselves and gladly accept their ineptitude.
I myself have performed in plenty of non folk club/pub situations where I've just been musical wallpaper and nobody has listened, and on occasions some of these have turned out to be very good nights. It's up to the performer!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 04:38 PM

the video is irrelevant to the discussion,it is no more relevant than Martin Carthy singing hymns in church.
they are not singing in a folk club[are they?]neither are they singing folk songs/traditional material.
the fact that they are musicians from the folk revival is irrelevant, if they chose to perform Handels Messiah ,we would not expect them , to perform without music,because they would be performing classical music.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 04:17 PM

Which side of the fence did you come down? It was apparent that MWR and the other singer (Maggie Goodall?) were using crib sheets, but they gave a pretty good performance all the same. Most of the audience did look as if they'd never seen a songsheet before - let alone one with the words of that carol - but I think we can go easy on audiences. And Richard Whiteley could only have benefited from having a songsheet put in his hand - he would have been forced to join in.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 02:57 PM

I was ambivalent about crib sheets until I saw this - now I'm decided

Martyn Wyndham Read with Martin Carthy

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 06:57 PM

Shame really, Bryan. I thought you and Jim were just about to agree on something. There is not a problem at the Lewes Arms Folk club; the problem is your philosophy of 'the only qualification for performing folk music is the desire to'. You now seem to want to derail the argument into the realms of some psycho-babble formulated by an American lawyer! And you are taking you ball home, again.

You now have two people (at least) who are beneath continuing the discusion with. If you carry on at this rate which discussion groups will you be able to contribute to? The choice of who you can talk to online is getting smaller all the time isn't it?;-)

All the best to the Lewes Arms Club. Do you want me to let you know in advance when I am coming so you let me know if you will be there? Oh, sorry. You do not communicate with me do you? Oh dear, how sad, never mind. We will just have to play it by ear then:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 06:03 PM

Jim Carroll


You seem to be working to the Joe Goebbels philosophy

Ah, its that Godwin's Law moment!

Is there any point in continuing? No, not really.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 05:28 PM

which part of Chorlton in case I'm ever tempted to go?

Ouch. I think you'd like the Beech, Jim.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 04:09 PM

Thanks, Jim. It is far from perfect but we like it:-) We DO get at least 2 serial song stranglers on a semi-regular basis and I am painfully aware of the damage they can do if let loose on an unsuspecting public! I know it seems a bit of a cop out to let them perform at singers nights and I am aware it does seem to be a double standard. At the moment though it is how we cope and it does limit the damage. Pity us poor sods who have to put up with it:-( At least we do know that there are issues that need addressing in our club and, I suspect, many more.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 03:55 PM

Bryan:
"Jim, you had, once again, accused me of promoting crap standards. I was pointing out that you have absolutely no idea what the standard of performance is at the Lewes Arms so you have no evidence for your accusation."
You seem to be working to the Joe Goebbels philosophy - if you repeat a lie enough it becomes true.
I have NEVER at any time commented on the standard of performance at the Lewes Arms, nor would I.
I, and the others who have participated in this discussion have reacted to your statement that all it takes is the desire to sing to be given a floor spot PERIOD.
You said it - it's crass as far as I'm concerned.
Richard said it (and at least had the bottle to articulate support for dumbing down) - it's crass.
If Pope John II had said it, it's still crass - end of story.
A comment on the statement, not on your club, which, according to you, does not get non-singers asking to sing.
"I can find nothing in your post of 19 Nov 08 - 05:47 which seems to be a question for me to answer."
Sorry, Bryan, not questions but general comments, some of which were directed to your statements - feel free to respond or not - as the case may be.
"Your basic assumption seems to be that anybody who wants to sing is incapable of doing so."
No it isn't, never has been, nor ever will be. I have constantly said that anybody can sing - as long as they put the work in; I expect that, in respect to the club, the audience, the music and themselves, they should have put sufficient work in to bring their singing up to a basic standard before, not during their appearance before an audience - you believe this to be unnecessary - that's why your non-standards are crass.
Wanting to be anything, pastry chef, mountaineer, singer requires that you train beforehand - otherwise you burn the cakes, break your neck or piss the audience off so they don't come back.
" re. singers who couldn't sing - They don't. We don't. Sorry if that doesn't suit your world view."
Then stop telling the rest of us that we should put up with what you don't have to - once again I ask - do you believe those of us who claim to have experienced the phenomenon are telling porkies??? If you do believe us - do you still propose that we should continue to let them practice in public till they get it right (or don't get it right, as the case may be?)
"floor singers are part of the audience;"
Here you appear to putting the onus of what goes on at the club directly on to the audience - do you take no responsibility for what goes on? Do the audience decide your guest policy by a show of hands - evasive bullshit!!!
"the responsibility for the standard of performance ultimately depends on the performer"
YES IT BLOODY IS -THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SAYING; but it's up to the club organisers to ascertain that they have met their end of the bargain before they become regulars by doing the work to reach a basic standard - otherwise you are conning your audience, selling the music short and allowing your singer to run the risk of humiliating him/herself publicly.
Dave,
seems like a good set-up you have there - would that it was repeated a thousandfold - sounds like you don't need too many guests.
'GUEST,Father Knew Lloyd George'
Crib sheets, Plaisir d'amour, Singing Together - thanks for the warning - which part of Chorlton in case I'm ever tempted to go?
Vic,
Apologies again - another senior moment. I am well aware that there are two clubs in Lewes and that Bryan is involved in The Lewes Arms and you are at The Royal Oak - my remarks are aimed at Bryan, not you and your club.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 07:58 AM

Oh, and Bryan - I know you are not talking to me but I would like to say thanks for the line floor singers are part of the audience; a significant part; on frequent occasions, the major part. It is what I was trying, and failing, to get at when I was prattling on about the three different kinds of audience we have. Off the top of my head I would break it down to

1. 10% The residents - Always of good quality
2. 40% The concert goers - Never perform
3. 50% The floorsingers of which I would estimate 55% are more than adequate, 40% are very good and 5% are well below par

I could be wrong but I think it is a fair-ish rule of thumb.

I think maybe it IS time to take this to another thread after all! Will someone else start it though so Bryan can add his views? :-D

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 07:44 AM

Willy Waving? Only wish I could mate, only wish I could. Not seen it for years...

and the Nu-folk hairdo's. Blimey. Mine was never like that even when I had hair and I was never that good looking! Don't you hate 'em. Talented, young, handsome t***ts:-D

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 07:17 AM

That's me about thirty five years ago.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 07:03 AM

This sort of thing, Bryan...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 07:00 AM

Thanks, mate, Gervase. And there was me thinking my last post was quite mild mannered and pleasant and faintly humerous...

Willy waving! I ask you...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 07:00 AM

Spleen Cringe

nu-folk hairdoes

Wha...? No, don't tell me. I'm probably happier not knowing.