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Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
Related threads:
Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART IV (91)
Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II (124) (closed)
Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants (125) (closed)
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Steve Gardham Date: 01 Mar 17 - 04:02 PM Poor Flora on the Banks of Boyne/ Lovely Banks of Boyne. The only online version I have seen is in the Crawford Collection at the English Ballads part of the Santa Barbera website titled 'Lovely Banks of Boyne'. It's Laws P22. The only oral version I have is from Nova Scotia. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 01 Mar 17 - 11:18 AM Steve and all, There are 52 entries from V. Williams online for John Johnson's MS book (digital copy in Vaughan Williams Memorial Library). John Johnson was from Fittleworth Essex- he was the father of Gladys Stone- you just sent me her "Deep in Love." Apparently he died about in 1940s or 50s. There's no way I could find these songs collected by Johnson at the V. Williams site. Anyone? Finished the headnotes to Yon Green Valley and can confirm now that Barry's "Early in the Spring" is the first extant US version and first published version (1908) although it was learned in Ireland: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7r-yon-green-valley-green-valley-.aspx I have more of the unknown song I need help identifying. It's a Newfoundland song in "Never Had a Word Between Us": Pattern in the Verbal Art of a Newfoundland Woman by Debora G. Kodish, 1981 p. 102.
Down in yon green valley that lies far away, |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Steve Gardham Date: 28 Feb 17 - 05:04 PM John Johnson Ms. Off the top of my head I can't remember this but if it's at the VWML then it's available. I don't know when I'll next be there. Can you tell me more about the ms book? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 28 Feb 17 - 03:45 PM Hi, I've finished for now Deep in Love: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7q-deep-in-love-deep-as-the-love-im-in.aspx I've identified four versions that can reasonably be titled "Died in Love." The other versions are part of "Down in the Meadow" (Unfortunate Swain). A. "I Saw a Ship" sung by Newcastle miners communicated by C.L. Acland. From Notes and Queries p.441, 1867. B. "Deep in Love" Sent to Baring-Gould by Miss Octavia L. Hoare, Cornwall Cottage Dean, Kimbolton about 1889 from Baring-Gould's MS. See also the published version [in blockquotes] of "Deep in Love" by the same informant, Rev. S. M. Walker as it appears in Songs And Ballads Of The West (1891) by Sabine Baring-Gould, Henry Fleetwood Sheppard, Frederick William Bussell. C. "I Spied a Ship Sailin' on the Sea"- sung by Miss Mutch collected by Gavin Grieg about 1908. Greig-Duncan Collection D. "Seven Ships on the Sea" fragment sung by Jane Gentry in 1916 at Hot Springs, North Carolina; Sharp MS The version sent to Baring-Gould was only for stanzas. The version he published in Songs of the West was six stanzas and altered in every stanza to have AABB rhyme. Steve-- thanks for sending me "I Spied a Ship Sailin' on the Sea"- sung by Miss Mutch collected by Gavin Grieg about 1908 in Greig-Duncan Collection. Here's the logic: Every song with the "I saw a Ship" stanza is Deep in Love and even songs without that stanza but with stanzas from Unfortunate Swain are Deep in Love. Yet "The Water is Wide" is not Deep in Love and it has that stanza. I petition for a change in the established tradition. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 28 Feb 17 - 11:31 AM Hi, I checked-- Unfortunate Swain is actually still Roud 60 a couple versions are 18829 but if you do a Roud search "Unfortunate Swain" it's Roud 60. I assume that was left over from days past. They should all be 18829 I suppose, as for changing the number I think 18829 is fine and I know "Deep in Love" is the accepted title (via Baring-Gould) and although that makes no sense - that's the way it is. I'd prefer "Down in the Meadow" or "Down in Yon Meadow" so that's what I'm using. Maybe it can changed someday to Down in the Meadow. Do you know how to access "John Johnson MS book"? Says: (digital copy in Vaughan Williams Memorial Library) p.31. Since there are digital copies it should be available- maybe not tho. Thanks, Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Steve Gardham Date: 28 Feb 17 - 10:30 AM At the moment 'Unfortunate Swain' is included in 18829. If you want to make a case for a separate number then I'm sure Steve will listen. My Master Title by the way, as you should already know, is 'Deep in Love' based on the title that appears most in published collections. Remember a loose rule we use for deciding whether songs are variants of each other, as opposed to separate songs with a few floaters in common, is if the 2 (or more) songs have 50% of material or more in common. Of course this is fairly straightforward with narrative songs but not so with laments like these. I have 60-70 versions and will send some as soon as I get time. Now, back to those juicy songsters on the NLS site. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 28 Feb 17 - 09:48 AM Hi, TY, Richard for that version of Sailor Boy. I have the title "Sailor Boy (Sweet William)" which are the two main titles. The maid's usual reaction after learning of the death of her sailor boy is to jump overboard. In versions that have acquired stanzas from Died for Love she hangs herself. I've just started a study of Sailor Boy but it will take some time so it's not ready. I'm waiting to get studies done of the lesser relatives first :) Steve and all, I've started "Down in the Meadows (Unfortunate Swain)" here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7s-down-in-a-meadow-unfortunate-swain.aspx I assume it's Roud 18829 although Unfortunate Swain isn't 18829 and I'm not sure (since I didn't see them in 18829) about some of the others like Christie's "Prickly Rose" and Johnson's "In Yon Garden" which dates back to the mid-1700s. Steve what is the Roud number for these versions of Unfortunate Swain? The study is just started so it's rough. Any other versions of Down in the Meadows would be appreciated, I only have about 10 so far. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Steve Gardham Date: 27 Feb 17 - 10:08 AM Lovely stuff, Richard! Bob was very inventive with the pieces he picked up and prone to localising. Here he made it more of a sea song. The 'Billee' bit has several connotations. I believe he also sang Thackeray's 'Little Billee' and he would have been familiar with the last of the Billyboys sailing on the east coast. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richard Mellish Date: 27 Feb 17 - 05:46 AM Bob Roberts' version of Sailor Boy (or whatever other title you prefer) has two delightful features: the localisation in stanza 4 and the spoken bit at the end. Oh father, father, build me a boat And on the ocean I'll go afloat. And every ship that I chance to see, I'll make enquiry for my boy Billee. She 'adn't long sailed on the sea When a man o' war ship she chanced to see. Oh captain, captain, come tell me true, Is me Billy boy there aboard wi' you? What's the colour o' your Billy's hair? What kind o' cloth does your Billy wear? His hair is auburn, 'is eyes are blue, And 'e wears the cloth of the navy blue. I doubt, I doubt your Billy's not 'ere. Last night 'e was drownded off Yarmouth pier. You mind the time when the sea ran 'igh? It parted us and your Billy boy. Oh mother, mother the waves are wide. The waves are long, and with him I'll bide. So on 'em cast a turtle dove, To show the world that I died in love. (spoken) and over the side she went. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 26 Feb 17 - 07:48 PM Hi, That's what I like about you Steve you aren't entrenched in a position. Folk studies studies are evolving, just like your study of Child 295-- the walls must come down!!! Chatting with Steve Roud seems the prudent course of action. The other area is the Unfortunate Swain or "Down in the Meadow/Down in Yon Valley" which is still Roud 60-- it shouldn't be. These songs have only one stanza occasionally in common (Must I Go Bound) with Died for Love. In tradition that stanza is usually missing. Although used in Died for Love, Must I go Bound is better separated. Roud 18829 should be one variant, probably Must I Go Bound. "Deep in Love" is Unfortunate Swain or "Down in the Meadow/Down in Yon Valley." Baring-Gould and UK collectors called all versions of Unfortunate Swain- Deep in Love--that can be fixed. They can all be lumped or I'd be in favor of having Deep in Love separate and Unfortunate Swain or "Down in the Meadow/Down in Yon Valley" as a different Roud number. Early, Early at the break of day (Two Hearts) is only two broadsides and two trad versions but should not be Roud 60 anymore. These are all suggestions. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Steve Gardham Date: 26 Feb 17 - 09:43 AM Excellent analysis, Richie! I'm beginning to agree, we need a new number for one of them, probably the one with the narrative as it's less common. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 25 Feb 17 - 08:38 PM Hi, This will be the third installment of my headnotes and is solely about "The Rambling Boy" (Roud 18830), a ballad wildly popular in the UK in the late 1700s and early 1800s. Although the first stanza and tune were catchy (see Kittredge JAF 1916) the ballad as created by a broadside writer (or writers) was fatally flawed and died a quick death. As always the text may be read on my site: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7-died-for-love-brisk-young-sailorrambling-boy.aspx The fatal flaw? It was poorly assembled from another broadside, read on and you shall see, Richie. * * * * C, "The Rambling Boy" was printed in collections and chapbooks in England, Ireland and Scotland in the 1700s. The earliest record of it is in "The musical companion: Being a chosen collection of the new and favorite songs, sung at the theatres and public gardens." This collection of 18 songs was printed in London about 1765. In this collection the title is "The Wild Rover," a title not commonly used for the "Rambling Boy" songs. Today, "Wild Rover" is a title for a different song but there is a related family member titled, The Rover ("I am a rover who is quite well-known") with a vaguely similar first stanza. "Rambling Boy" was first printed under the "Rambling Boy" title in a chapbook "The Fencibles in the Suds: A New Song to which are Added, 2. the Rambling Boy. 3. the Irish Lassey. 4. the Roving Tinker" printed in Dublin in 1782. Another chapbook published by W. Goggin of Limerick has "Rambling Boy, To which is Added, The New Vagary O, Shepherds I Have Lost My Love, The Drop of Dram, Fight Your Cock in the Morning," BM 11622 c.14, dated 1790. A Scottish chapbook by J. & M. Robertson, has "Rambling Boy with the Answer" (the Answer is B) which was printed in Saltmarket, Glasgow in 1799. The Rambling Boy usually begins, "I'm a wild and rambling boy" or "I'm a rake and rambling boy" both of which are found in a different ballad about a highway robber (Laws 12, Roud 490) similarly titled "Rich and Rambling Boy," or "Rambling Boy," and also "A Wild and Wicked Youth," "In Newry Town," "The Robber's Song," "The Roving Blade," or "The Flash Lad." Since the opening line and the titles are the sometimes the same, it's easy to confuse the two. The highway robber ballad which was probably fashioned on the opening line of A and/or B has remained popular throughout the 1900s especially in America while C, The Rambling Boy was never popular in America and only one fragment has been collected from NY in the 1820s. Only B with it's similar opening line ("I am a rowdy rambling boy") has been found in America, but usually in a corrupt state. Our Rambling Boy (Round 18830) text from the Musical Companion (2nd song) of 1765, London, follows: 1. I am a wild and a rambling boy, My lodgings are in the Isle of Cloy, A wild and a rambling boy I be, I'll forsake them all and follow thee. 2. O Billy! Billy! I love you well, I love you better than tongue can tell I love you well but dare not show, To you my dear, let no one know. 3. I wish I was a blackbird or thrush, Changing my notes from bush to bush, That all the world might plainly see, I lov'd a man that lov'd not me. 4. I wish I was a little fly, That on his bosom I might lie. And all the people fast asleep, Into my lover's arms I'd softly creep. 5. I love my father I love my mother, I love my sisters and my brothers I love my friends and relations too, I would forsake them all to go with you. 6. My father left me house and land, Bid me use it at my command But at my command they shall I never be; I'll forsake them all love and go with thee. 7. My father coming home late one night And asking for his heart's delight. He ran up stairs, the door he broke. And found her hanging in a rope. 8. He took a knife and cut her down, And in her bosom a note was found: Dig me a grave both wide and deep. And a marble stone to cover it. The text is a series of floaters and "I Wish" stanzas from older broadsides with stanzas 1, 7 and 8 being in common with B, The Cruel Father. Stanza 2 is taken directly from the 1686 broadside Nelly's Constancy which is found modified in a number of Died for Love ballads and is even the title of one-- I Love You Jamie, a Scottish variant. Stanzas 3 and 4 are from the tradition of Died for Love being "I wish I was" ballad stanzas (see: Pitman's Love Song). Stanza 5 is a floater found in many Died for Love songs and older broadsides while stanza 6 is unique but appears with considerable variation in later versions. Stanzas 2-6 are designed to show the maid's deep love for her Rambling Boy however, the abrupt and sudden suicide show the ending stanzas were tacked on and the connecting stanzas were missing. It's as if a broadside writer took B and removed the plot and filled it with floating love stanzas. With this fatal flaw in broadside construction, the suicide never made sense.
Ca also retains the name Billie/Willie as found in B an indication that the construction of C was made from B, or and earlier missing broadside. The same or similar Rambling Boy text was reprinted a number of times in broadsides of the 1800s, probably first by J. Pitts of 14 Great St. Andrew Street, Seven Dials, London about 1806. About 1888 Baring-Gould, who has access to the British Museum(Library) broadsides, copied the opening stanzas of the Pitts broadside in his notebooks as version C. The broadside, "Rambling Boy" was printed by J. Catnach, at 7 Dials between 1813 and 1838 was "sold by T. Batchelar, 14, Hackney Road Crescent; Marshall, Bristol; Price, St. Clement's; Bennett, and Boyse, Brighton; J. Sharman, Cambridge; & J. Pierce, Southborough," showing that it was widely distributed. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 25 Feb 17 - 04:46 PM Hi, Here's my Cruel Father (B version) notes. It's interesting that there is no Roud number for this except Steve told me to use Roud 23272 a number for "The Isle of Cloy" a version of B. Again, it's better viewed online but it's easier to assimilate in little chucks :) http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7-died-for-love-brisk-young-sailorrambling-boy.aspx although it's improved it probably needs to be redone at least once. To see all the ballads of B, look at the first post in this thread, Richie * * * * From the ashes of the maid's ruin came B, titled Cruel Father after Ba, a Madden broadside of c.1780. Although B was printed in the last half of the 1700s, it may be from a much older missing broadside which could be the originator of the older members of the Died for Love family[11]. Evidence of this missing antecedent is found in Rambling Boy, C, which is B without B's detailed story line and a traditional Scottish version "The Irish Boy" from an Edinburgh MS dated 1770. "The Cruel Father" along with "The Rambling Boy" introduced an important new twist to the maid's vague story, an element not found in the floating stanzas of the "maid in despair" broadsides: the maid-- distraught over the loss or abandonment of her lover--writes a note then commits suicide. Her father comes home, finds her hanging by a rope and cuts her down. He reads the note on her breast which instructs him to bury her in a certain way so the world will know she "died for love." This new twist is found in a traditional version "The Irish Boy," from an MS by Elizabeth St. Clair of Edinburgh, c.1770 and many of the subsequent members of the Died for Love family. It is especially important in Butcher Boy and Maiden's Prayer, a variant still popular in the UK today. And most importantly-- B and C introduce the culminating "Died for Love" stanza ("Dig my grave both wide and deep") which is a unifying stanza found in the "Died for Love" songs and their relatives. Since Ba has the common "died for love" ending and suicide, it places B as a family member in spite of its very different story. Although Bb from a Scottish chapbook is titled "Answer to Rambling Boy," it is not closely related to the "Rambling Boy" (my C) that precedes it or the Pitts "Rambling Boy" broadside of c.1820 which begins, "I am a wild and rambling boy." Both the chapbook "Rambling Boy" and the Pitts broadside, are different ballads than those of B-- they are B with B's plot removed-- replacing the plot of B are the floating stanzas of A. Both "The Rambling Boy" and Bc, "The Answer to Rambling Boy," were also published four times in the US (Philadelphia) in the early 1800s[12]. A number of very corrupt versions[13] of B, usually appearing in collections under the "Butcher Boy" title, have been collected in the US. Here is Ba, "The Cruel Father or Deceived Maid" from the Madden Collection, dated c1780: A squire's daughter near Aclecloy, She fell in love with a prentice boy, Buy when her father came to hear, He separated her from her dear. [Now all for to increase her pain,[14] He lent her true love to the main;] To act his part with a gallant tar, On board the Terrible man of war. He had not been three months at sea, Before he fell in a bloody fray; It was tins young man's lot to fall. And he lost his life by a cannon-ball. That very night this man was slain, His Ghost unto her father came, With dismal moans by the bed he stood, His neck and breast all smear'd with blood. A fortnight after this lady fair She fell in fits for her only dear That very night on her bed awoke, And hung herself in her own bed-rope. He took a knife and cut her down And in her bosom a note was found. It was wrote in blood by a woman's hand, These few lines as you shall understand. A cruel father you was [worst] of men, 'Tis you have brought me to my sad end, You sent my jewel where the stormy winds did blow, Now, alas! it has prov'd my overthrow. Once my dear love is slain And bury'd in the watery main, May this warning be, for your cruelty, I will die a maid for my jewel's sake. Dig me a grave, both wide and deep; Place a marble-stone for to cover it, And in the middle a turtle dove, To show young virgins I dy'd for love!" After the first stanzas it's clear that B has a much different story than A, C-F or for that matter: any other versions except G. Except for the opening lines, suicide and ending, B is a different ballad. The three extant older print titles include: "The Cruel Father or Deceived Maid," "Answer to Rambling Boy" and "The Squire's Daughter." Besides a number of corrupt traditional versions found in the US, there are three credible traditional variants; the first, titled Cruel Father, was collected by Sharp in Virginia[15] in 1918; the second, titled "Isle of Cloy," was collected by E.J. Moeran in Suffolk in the 1930s while the last, titled "Beam of Oak,"was collected by Macedward Leach in Labrador in 1960. B has these identifying characteristics with variation: 1) A maid, who is a squire's daughter near Auchnacloy, (County Tryone, Ireland) falls in love with a prentice boy/rambling boy. When her "cruel" father finds out about their love, he separates them by pressing the boy to sea. A similar theme with a different ending is found in the "Drowsy Sleeper" broadsides. 2) Several months after the prentice/rambling boy is sent to sea on a man-of-war, there's a battle and he dies by a cannonball. That very night, his bloody ghost visits the father. 3) A fortnight later his daughter hears of her lover's death and distraught-- writes a note and goes to her room. Her father comes home, looks for his daughter and getting no answer breaks down her door to find her hanging from a rope. "He took a knife and cut her down and in her bosom a note was found." The note, written in blood, blames the "cruel father" for her "sad overthrow." 4) The ending of Ba, "Cruel Father," is the standard stanza: "Dig me a grave, both wide and deep/ Place a marble-stone for to cover it/ And in the middle a turtle dove/To show young virgins I dy'd for love!" Both the suicide and ending show Ba's association with Rambling Boy, Butcher Boy, and the more modern version of the 1900s, Maiden's Prayer. Because the male suitor is from Auchnacloy, (County Tryone, Ireland) its possible that B and also C are of Irish origin. Notice in B, that there is no false lover, no pregnancy is mentioned and that she does not hang herself because of her false lover but because her cruel father separated them and sent her lover to sea where he was killed by a cannonball. B, therefore, is a different ballad. As mentioned earlier: by its opening lines, the suicide, and ending stanza, B is included here as a version of "Died for Love." B, without identification, has often been lumped together in collections with versions of "The Butcher Boy" and other "Died in Love" ballads. The existence of B was pointed out by Roger deV. Renwick in his chapter 'Oh, Willie': An Unrecognized Anglo-American Ballad from his book, Recentering Anglo/American Folksong: Sea Crabs and Wicked Youths. Although Renwick fails to identify the original source of his "new" ballad, he does show the differences and identifies most versions in various collections. The American versions of B that Renwick calls "Oh Willie" are found between Be-Bo except for Bi, which is English. Most of the traditional US versions are badly corrupted and are missing most of the story. Only in Bg (Sharp MS from Virginia in 1918) are enough details given to approximate the ballad story. Many US versions of B just mention the father who "swore he'd use his cannon ball" and for Renwick that was enough to include them a versions of "Oh Willie," my B. Another American identifier for B is the name "Willie" who in most American versions is not sent to sea, not killed at sea and his ghost doesn't return to haunt the cruel father. Surprisingly, there is no Roud number for B and despite Renwick's article, B is still not recognized. The Traditional Ballad Index calls B, "Beam of Oak," after the excellent version from Labrador, yet after a sketchy analysis they call it Roud 18830, the apparent Roud number for C, Rambling Boy. The various Died for Love ballads were at one time lumped under Roud 60 and through the diligence of Steve Gardham the vast Roud 60 was broken up and assigned different Roud numbers from the 18820s and 18830s. Some minor modification of Roud numbers is still required. Let's look at some similarities of B and C which share a very similar first line. The male suitor is usually named "Willie" in B, in some versions of C the suitor's name is also "Willie" and occasionally in C he cuts down the rope when he finds his love hanging-- a role usually carried out by her father. Her suitor is also named "Willie" in Robertson's 1799 version titled "Rambling Boy," my Cc. Another reason to believe both B and C were once derived from a single older print version is the "I wish I were a black-bird or thrush" stanza found in two American traditional versions of B and also Cd, the Pitts' "Rambling Boy." Other similarities are found in Robertson's 1799 "Rambling Boy," my Cc, which has the suicide and "Go dig my grave both wide and deep" stanza found in Ba. A few traditional ballads tell the full story found in Ba-Bc. One of them, "The Isle of Cloy," Bh, was collected by the composer E.J. Moeran in the 1930s in Suffolk from George Hill and Oliver Waspe. In the US there are a number of versions of B, most very corrupt. Notice that Bb, "Answer to Rambling Boy," was printed in the United States (Philadelphia) four times between 1805 and 1817. These US printings I've listed under Bd. The US printings seem to have had little effect on tradition and although "Oh Willie" versions have been found it's unclear if they could be from British tradition or from a US print. A variant titled "Rude and Rambling Boy," from Buna Hicks of Sugar Grove, NC has been traced to Rebecca Harmon, daughter of old "Counce" Harmon who disseminated ballad from his forbears brought from Virginia before the Revolutionary War. The use of "bed rope," an antiquated term found only in the older broadsides, indicates the Hicks/Harmon ballad to be very old. One other variant, H, The Queen of Hearts, has the story of B but it is significantly abbreviated and added as two stanzas to the end of those broadsides. I've separated them and indicated the commonality. It's important to note that although B was not printed after 1800, the stanzas of B were printed in the Queen of Hearts, a broadside of the 1820s-1850s. This means the ballad story of B was still known although the ballad seemed to disappear and even now has not been properly acknowledged. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 25 Feb 17 - 02:32 PM Hi, I've rewritten my Died for Love headnotes for my A and B. The A version notes aren't too long so I'll included them. These are versions of Roud 60 and 495. You may read the rough draft here http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7-died-for-love-brisk-young-sailorrambling-boy.aspx where it may be easier to read. Comments and suggestions are welcome, Richie. * * * * The epitaph, "I died for love" has been echoed in the many various ballads of this study. The "Died for Love" ballads today are identified by certain characteristics-- some of which are missing or have changed which makes categorization of these related ballads difficult. The general characteristics are: 1. The ballad story is told by a maid who falls in love with a false lover, a rambling boy. She tells him of her deep love and that she would leave her family and friends to go with him. 2. When he is courting her he follows her through frost and snow. When she becomes pregnant he passes by her door. 3. He goes to a town, house or alehouse and takes another girl on his knee. She relates: He tells her thing he won't tell me. 4. She laments: It's a grief, and I'll tell you why-- because she has more gold than I. But her gold will waste and her beauty will fly, then she'll be the same as I. 5. She wishes her baby could be born and sitting on its nurse's knee and "I'll be under the clay with green, green grass waving over me." 6. She wishes she was a maid again, but that can never be-- till an apple grows on an orange tree. 7. She goes up to her room and her mother asks, 'What's the matter with you dear?" She tells her mother she doesn't know the pain and suffering pain and woe--her daughter asks her mother for a chair and a pen and ink to write it down. 8. When her father comes home late at light he asks for his heart's delight. He goes upstairs the door he broke, he found his daughter hanging from a rope. He takes a knife and cuts her down and on her breast a note he found saying: What a foolish girl am I to fall in love with a butcher (Irish) boy. Go dig my grave both wide and deep, place a marble stone at me head and feet, and on my breast put a turtle dove, to show the world that I died for love. A, "Died For Love," is the title of this study and under this title fall a number of ballads mostly of more recent origin. It is the general theme of A which unifies this study: A maid is suffering from either the loss or betrayal of her lover and has "died for love." In many versions the maid is pregnant by her false lover and wishes she was a maid again or that she was dead and her baby could be born. One early broadside, Aa, "The Effects of Love- A New Song," printed in London c. 1780 shows the generic stanzas associated with the "Died for Love" ballads. The core ballads under A (my B-G) show how and why "she died for love" with considerable variation. In the subsequent core ballads after A the maid's circumstances prove to be so dire (she's abandoned, pregnant) that she commits suicide or simply dies of a broken heart. In his 1954 article in The English Folk Dance and Song Society Journal (Volume 7, p. 168) J. W. Allen called the broadside Aa "a veritable pot-pourri of songs." Stanzas 4 and 5, for example, are found similarly in the circa 1701 broadside "Arthur's Seat Shall Be My Bed, or: Love in Despair," an older parallel broadside. This shows the difficulty of classifying these ballads which are made up of random floating stanzas from various older broadsides. I give Aa, which is more a love song than a ballad, in its entirety: Aa, "The Effects of Love- A New Song, (broadside) London c. 1780: 1. O! Love is hot, and Love is cold, And love is dearer than any gold; And love is dearer than any thing, Unto my grave it will me bring. 2. O when my apron it hung low, He followed me thro' frost and snow; But now I am with-child by him, He passes by and says nothing. 3. I wish that I had ne'er been born, Since love has proved my downfall; He takes a stranger on his knee, And is this not a grief to me. 4. I wish that my dear babe was born, And dandled on its daddy's knee, And I in the cold grave did lie, And the green grass grew over me. 5. Ye Christmas winds when will ye blow; And blow the green leaves off the tree, O, gentle Death, when will you call, For of my life I am quite weary. 6. Unloose those chains love, and set me free And let me at liberty; For was you hear (sic) instead of me, I'd unloose you love, and set you free. Aa had been copied in Sabine Baring-Gould's notebook by 1890 after he visited the British Museum. He used the broadside in several studies of ballads related to Died for Love and even claimed one of his informants had sung it nearly exactly as it was published. As is typical of many of the early broadsides, Aa consists of floating stanzas that convey the despair of a maid who has become pregnant and wishes death would claim her to end the suffering and the bonds of love. Stanzas 2, 3 and 4 are core stanzas of Died for Love. The older broadsides of the late 1600s about a maid in despair which include "Arthur's Seat," "Constant Lady and the False Squire," "Nelly's Constancy" and "Jealous Lover" established a foundation for the more closely related ballads of the 1700s. Besides Aa, "The Effects of Love" were other similar broadsides which also told a tale of the maid's despair. The "Forsaken Lover" of c. 1780 also had floating stanzas from a broadside with quite different stanzas titled "The Unfortunate Swain" as well as two stanzas closely related to Died for Love: I wish to Christ my babe was born, And smiling in its daddy's arms, I myself wrapt up in clay, Then should I be free from all harm. Had I but kept my apron down, My love had ne'er forsaken me, But now he walks up and down the town With a harlot, and not with me. "The Complaining Maid" of c.1780 opened with three stanzas which are very similar to those found in Died for Love: Must I be bound that can go free, Must I love one that loves not me. Let reason rule thy wretched mind, Altho' I wink I am not blind. He loves another one he loves not me, No cares he for my company, He loves another I'll tell you why Because she has more gold than I. Gold will wast and Silver will flys, In time she may have as little as I, Had I but gold and Silver in store, He would like me as he has done before. These and other broadsides of the 1700s such as "Wheel of Fortune" were sung from the perspective of a maid in deep despair. They were usually constructed of floating stanzas that evolved from the early ballads of the 1600s which established the general Died for Love theme about a maid who has been rejected by her false lover, is pregnant and wishes she were dead. The variants of A have the "apron" and "I wish I Wish" stanza of Roud 495 plus they include at times the "alehouse" stanza and the "foolish young girl" stanza. The emphasis of A is on the three Died for Love stanzas of Aa (stanzas 2, 3 and 4) but A includes Characteristics 1-6 (see the earlier list) which includes the alehouse stanza (Roud 60). A does not have the Brisk Young Sailor opening nor the suicide; instead, it has three endings: 1. The first and most common ending is associated with the "I Wish, I Wish" stanza: I wish, I wish, I wish in vain, I wish I was a maid again, But a maid again I never shall be, Till an apple grows on an orange tree. After this ending, it is presumed that the maid continues on in her pregnant condition in a state of despair. No conclusions are drawn about what will happen in the future. This popular ending appears in the mid-1800s so it's not much older than c.1840. 2. The second comes from the common stanza as found in c1780 broadside, The Effects of Love: I wish that my dear babe was born, And dandled on its daddy's knee, And I in the cold grave did lie, And the green grass grew over me. This ending also has no specific finality to it although her condition is so extreme it seems her wish will shortly come true. 3. The last ending is drawn from the parallel broadside, The Constant Lady and the False-Hearted Squire. This ending is taken from Elsie Morrison of Moray in 1956 as recorded by Hamish Henderson: To her bed this fair maid went She placed the lilies below her head Twas there she lay and she never spoke Twas all through love that her young heart broke. In this ending, borrowed from a different broadside, the maid dies of a broken heart. * * * * |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Steve Gardham Date: 25 Feb 17 - 02:12 PM Refresh |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 24 Feb 17 - 09:56 PM Hi, I've started "Yon Green Valley" which has a stanza in common with "I Am a Rover" and is related to Died for Love and its family. Here the first page: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7r-yon-green-valley-green-valley-.aspx I need some help tracking down versions but it won't be easy. It's found mainly in Canada. I found a version in "Never Had a Word Between Us": Pattern in the Verbal Art of a Newfoundland Woman; Debora G. Kodish - 1981. Its chorus: Down in yon green valley that lies far away, Where me and my bonny boy spent manys a pleasant day Where me and my bonny boy spent manys a pleasant time He soon proved false to Floro on the lovely banks of Bine. Anyone have the book who can post it? Know a version like that? * * * * Debra Cowan of Massachusetts has a version, it begins: Green Valley For a young man courted me earnestly It was with his wishes I did comply It was his false vows and flattering tongue He beguiled me love when I was young In yon green valley we both went down Where the pretty small birds come a-whistling 'round Changing their notes from tree to tree As the sun arose on yon green valley. I need to find her source or any closely related version. Anyone? * * * * This is related but it's a different song- sung from the male perspective. Any other versions or info? The Journal of American Folk-lore, Volume 22, Parts 3-4 Barry-- Irish Come-all -Ye's 1. Early early all in the spring, When gentle small birds begin to sing, Changing their notes from tree to tree, As the sun arose over yon green valley. 2. For six long months my love she did prove kind, And then six after, she changed her mind, Saying "Farewell, darling, I must away, You know my parents I must obey!" 3. He held her fast, he would not let her go, Saying, "Mary, Mary, my mind you know, Fulfil those vows you made to me, As the sun arose over yon green valley!" * * * * Other than that there's a version called "Must I Go Bound" by Bascom Lama Lunsford recorded in 1935. Or a version titled "Green Valley" recorded by Lomax in Michigan in 1938. Anyone? Other versions? I'll do probably one or two more "appendix" additions- then it's a matter of finishing everything. Any comments or suggests are welcome. TY Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 24 Feb 17 - 01:01 PM Hi, I've finished the headnotes to "I am a Rover": http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7p-i-am-a-rover-the-rover.aspx I want to thank Steve Gardham for sending me copies and texts/ also Gwilym Davies for sending mp3s. Steve I need "I Love you Jamie" from Greig Duncan to finish that and Deep in Love by Gladys Stone in Kennedy, Folksongs of Britain & Ireland (1975) p.349 Collector, Bob Copper. I've briefly looked at Yon Green Valley (Green Valley) and wonder- does anyone has any older versions of that song? TY Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 23 Feb 17 - 09:31 PM Hi, I looked at MSS of Roud 28829. The link I posted that claims to have Baring-Gould's complete notes-- are just his final reworked pages, not his actually messy notes. Baring-Gould version in Song's of the West was completely reworded to have an AABB rhyme so it should be disregarded. The actual traditional versions are very sketchy and I'll need to spend some time to figure out what he did. However, there are several versions. Unfortunately Baring-Gould labeled these different variants of Unfortunate Swain, Deep in Love, which apparently became a label that somehow stuck-- when it's the rewording of the third line of 9 random stanzas. As mystifying as that is to me- so be it (or, as Sir Paul penned, "Let it Be"). I've found a couple traditional versions that I feel qualify to be Deep in Love versions. One is a song sung by Newcastle miners: From Notes and Queries (page 441) 1867: Song.—I came across a song a few days ago, of which I append the words. I was told that it is a fragment of a song frequently sung by the Newcastle pitmen. The melody, as I heard it, is very quaint, and also good, and has an ancient ring about it. Perhaps you or some of your readers can give the rest of the song, or anything of its history, &c. "I saw a ship sailing on the sea. As deeply laden as she could be; But not so deep as in love I am, For I care not whether I sink or swim. "I leaned my back against an oak, Thinking it was some trusty tree; But first it bent, and then it broke, And so did my false love to me. "I put my hand into a thorn, Thinking the sweetest rose to find; I pricked my finger to the bone. And left the beauteous flower behind. "I wish, I wish, but 'tis all in vain— I wish I had my heart back again; I'd lock it up in a silver box, And fasten it with a golden chain." C. L. Acland. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 23 Feb 17 - 07:26 PM Hi, Not sure if I put the Unfortunate Swain text here. I'm including a few brief unfinished notes from my "Deep in Love" headontes: The placement of the identifying "Deep in Love" stanza as the opening stanza is one way to validate the title being "Deep in Love." Some other ways are: the identifying stanza is repeated as a chorus or if there are two stanzas in the variant. The "Deep in Love" stanza does not have other stanzas that usually go with it but rather it is from a set of stanzas found in "The Unfortunate Swain" which can reasonably be sung in any order. A number of broadsides were printed starting about 1750. This standard text is from The Merry Songster. Being a collection of songs, Printed and sold in Aldermary Church Yard, Bow Lane, London, [1770?]: "The Unfortunate Swain" 1. Down in a Meadow both fair and gay, Plucking a Flowers the other day, Plucking a Flower both red and blue, I little thought what Love could do. 2. Where Love's planted there it grow(s), It buds and blows much like any Rose; And has so sweet and pleasant smell, No Flower on Earth can it excell. 3. Must I be bound and she be free? Must I love one that loves not me? Why should I act such a childish Part To love a Girl that will break my Heart. 4. There's thousand thousands in room, My true love carries the highest Bloom, Sure she is some chosen one, I will have her, or I'll have none. 5. I spy'd a Ship sailing on the Deep, She sail'd as deep as she could swim; But not so deep as in Love I am, I care not whether I sink or swim. 6. I set my Back against an oak, I thought it had been a Tree; But first it bent and then it broke, So did my false Love to me. 7. I put my Hand into a Bush, Thinking the sweetest Rose to find, l prick'd my Finger to the Bone, And left the sweetest Rose behind. 8. If Roses are such prickly Flowers, They should be gather'd while they're green, And he that loves an unkind Lover, I'm sure he strives against the stream. 9. When my love is dead and at her rest, I'll think of her whom I love best I'll wrap her up in Linnen strong, And think on her when she's dead and gon[e]. Songs related to or derived from The Unfortunate Swain, also known as Picking Lilies, are identified by the opening, "Down in a Meadow." Notice that Baring-Gould's "Deep in Love' stanza 4 opens with "Down in a Meadow[]." Stanzas 7 and 8 are usually joined and come from Martin Parker's "Distressed Virgin" of c.1626. The other stanzas usually appear along with the "Deep in Love" stanza in print and in tradition. The choice and the order of stanzas seem arbitrary. What's remarkable is that the individual stanza exhibit a wide variety of emotions from the exhilaration of love (stanzas 1, 2,4,5) to the agony of despair and death (stanzas 3,6,7,8,9). The first stanza or more accurately the first line is occasionally found in the Died for Love songs and their relatives. It's mixed with the similar first line from "Constant Lady," a broadside more commonly used in Died for Love. Stanza 4 ("If there's a thousand in the room") is found in Sailor Boy (Sweet William) a "traditional" relative[] of Died for Love. * * * * I never finished my headnotes. They are here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7q-deep-in-love-deep-as-the-love-im-in.aspx As a general rule, with very few exceptions (one being "Must I Go Bound"): Stanzas from Unfortunate Swain are not found in the Died for Love songs. Died for Love is aligned with Constant Lady and the False Squire. Some of the related songs like Sailor Boy, for example, have a common stanza. Unfortunate Swain is aligned with "Down in the Meadows;" "Love is Teasing;" "Waly, Waly;" "Water is Wide;" "Deep in Love" and "Must I Go Bound." Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 23 Feb 17 - 06:19 PM Hi, Here's another example: "Down In Yon Meadows", tune and text from Thomas Hepple; Manuscript, ca.1857 Down in a meadow fresh & gay Plucking flowers the other day, Plucking flowers both red and blue, I little thought what love could do. Where love is planted there it grows, It buds & blossoms like any rose, Such a sweet and pleasant smell, All flowers on earth can it excel. There thousands thousands all in a room, My love she carries the highest bloom, Surely she must be some chosen one, I will have her or, I will have none. I put my hand into a bush, Thinking the sweetest rose to find, But I prick'd my finger to the bone, I left the sweetest rose behind. I spy'd a ship sailing on the sea Laden as deep as she could be, But not deep as in love I am, I care not whether she sink or swim. Must I be bound and she go free Must I love one that loves not me; Why should I act such a childish part To love a girl that should break my heart. This is not "Deep in Love" and it is almost appropriately titled (Down in a Meadow). It's also not "Must I be Bound." It can't be named or classified by any other stanza. If it began with another stanza, it could be named by that stanza. It can be classified under Unfortunate Swain. I'm working on this now but this is a problem with Roud 18829 (which I was going to look at later) and some Roud numbers-- thank goodness everything isn't this complicated!! Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 23 Feb 17 - 05:57 PM Hi, The problem with these songs based on the Unfortunate Swain is that every stanza but two (stanzas 7 and 8) is a floater. As an example, let's use a short version collected by George Butterworth: Down in those meadows fresh & gay, Plucking flowers the other day, I plucked those flowers both red and blues, I little thought what love could do The roses are such prickly flowers They should be gathered when they are green, I pricked my finger into the bone, I left the sweetest rose behind. I leaned my back against an oak, I thought it was a trusty tree, But first it bent,then it broke, And so did my false love to me. In yonder deep there swims a ship, She swims as deep as deep can be, Not half so deep as I am in love, I little care if I sink or swim. It's not "Deep in Love" unless you put the last stanza first then it's "Deep in Love." Right now it's "Down in those Meadows" based on the "Unfortunate Swain" identifying stanza or it could be called "Unfortunate Swain" if the singer or collector even knew it came from that broadside. Or if it began with the third stanza: I leaned my back against an oak, I thought it was a trusty tree, But first it bent, then it broke, And so did my false love to me. Now it's titled "I Leaned my Back" or "Trusty Tree." Each stanza is an autonomous floater. If only two stanzas-- it makes it easier to name :) Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 23 Feb 17 - 05:33 PM Hi Steve, Well it's taken from Unfortunate Swain, I guess I thought it was a mistake. Here's how it is printed: Down in yon Meadow fresh and gay, Picking of Flowers the other day, Picking of Lillies red and blue: I little thought what Love could do. [Unfortunate Swain] Now it's right? Down in yon Mead fresh and gay, Picking of Flowers the other day, Picking of Lillies red and blue: I little thought what Love could do. Since it's supposedly traditional he could have sung, "mead" :) Baring-Gould completely reworked this version leaving off the line than names the song. I still think it's "meadow." No big deal just two letters-- unless you step on something- "ow" that hurt :) Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Steve Gardham Date: 23 Feb 17 - 02:53 PM What's wrong with 'mead'? It fits perfectly the flowery description of the rest of the song. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 23 Feb 17 - 11:50 AM Hi, Here's the ballad from the horse's mouth- the originator of the title, "Deep in Love"- Sabine Baring Gould. It was published in his Songs And Ballads Of The West (1891). Baring-Gould did a study of the ballad as we can see from his detailed MS notes. Here's what he published in 1891: LXXXVI. Deep in Love. This very curious song was obtained by the late Rev. S. M. Walker, of Saint Enoder, Cornwall, from an old man in his parish. Miss Octavia L. Hoare sent it me as preserved by Mr. Walker. We have obtained the same song from Mary Sacherley, aged 75, perfectly illiterate, at Huckaby Bridge, Dartmoor. Mary Sacherley is daughter of an old singing moor man, who was a cripple, on Dartmoor. She possesses the unique distinction of having a house that was built and inhabited in one day. The circumstances are these: Her husband's father had collected granite boulders to erect a cottage on a bit of land that he deemed waste, but a farmer interfered as he began to build. He accordingly had all the stones rolled down hill to a spot by the road side, heaped one on another in rude walls, rough beams thrown across, and covered with turf, and went into the house the same night. In that house his grandchildren are now living. Two of the stanzas, 3 and 5, are found in the Scotch song, " Wally, Wally, up the bank," "Orpheus Calsdonicus," 1733, No. 34; stanzas 4 and 5 in the song in "The Scott's Musical Museum," 1787 — 1803, VI., p. 582 ; Herd's "Scottish Songs," 3rd ed., 1791, I., p. 140; part of last stanza is like our conclusion. In "The Wandering Lover's Garland," circ. 1730, are two of the verses worked into an independent ballad, showing that the original is earlier. Again taken down from W. Nichols, of Whitchurch, near Tavistock, it was a song of his grandmother's, who sixty years ago was hostess of the village inn. DEEP IN LOVE. 1. A ship came sailing over the sea, As deeply laden as she could be; My sorrows fill me to the brim, I care not if I sink or swim. 2. Ten thousand ladies in the room, But my true love's the fairest bloom, Of stars she is my brightest sun, I said I would have her or none. 3. I leaned my back against an oak. But first It bent and then it broke; Untrusty as I found that tree. So did my love prove false to me. 4. Down in a mead[ow] the other day, As carelessly I went my way, And plucked flowers red and blue, I little thought what love could do. 5. I saw a Rose with ruddy blush. And thrust my hind into the bush, I pricked my fingers to the bone, I would I'd left that rose alone! 6. I wish! I wish! but 'tis in vain, I wish I had I my heart again With silver chain and diamond locks, I'd fasten it in a golden box. Baring-Gould's notes are transcribed here: http://www.sbgsongs.org/userimages/Deeplove-comp.pdf In stanza 4 he had "mead" instead of "meadow." Obviously rewritten by Baring-Gould to make each stanza have an AABB rhyme- in fact he took out the line that names the song-- Deep in Love-- it should be first stanza, the third line, "But not so deep as in love I am." Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 23 Feb 17 - 09:41 AM Hi, "I am Rover" (Roud 1112) has a nice illustration and the headnotes are nearly done: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7p-i-am-a-rover-the-rover.aspx Steve-- here's what I have for Deep in Love, I haven't looked through my notes. Obviously it appears in Unfortunate Swain/Picking Lilies (with Must I Go Bound) around 1750 and is part of Waly, Waly. Since I have it just after 1626 in "The Sea-mans leave taken of his sweetest Margery" printed for Francis Coles, I consider it to be different and inserted just as most of the stanzas in Waly/Unfortunate Swain are. Certainly most of the stanzas have their own identity. Here's the stanza from second part: Man. I have seaven Ships upon the Sea, and are all laden to the brim; I am so inflamd with love to thee, I care not whether they sinke or swim. The other stanza which is relevant is: Maid. If I had wist before I had kist, that Love had been so deare to win; My heart I would have closd in Gold, and pinnd it with a Silver pin. I have some more notes somewhere. I'll start working on it, Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 22 Feb 17 - 10:59 PM Hi, Steve and all, I'm signing off for the day. I did finish: 7M. The Colour of Amber--http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7m-the-colour-of-amber.aspx 7N. Through Lonesome Woods-- http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7n-through-lonesome-woods.aspx I also wrote 5 pages of Must I Go Bound and added I am a Rover (The Rover) This is where I am so far: 7A. The Sailor Boy, or, Sweet William (Soldier Boy; Sweet William; Pinery Boy; Early, Early in the Spring) 7B. Love Has Brought Me to Despair (Constant Lady; Love Has Brought Me to Despair; False Lover;) 7C. Sheffield Park-- Roud 860 ("The Unfortunate Maid;" "The Young Man of Sheffield Park;" "In Yorkshire Park" ) 7D. Every Night When The Sun Goes In (Every Night When The Sun Goes Down) 7E. Will Ye Gang Love, or, Rashy Muir (Rashie Moor; Rashy Moor) 7F. My Blue-Eyed Boy (Bring Back My Blue-Eyed Boy) 7G. Early, Early by the Break of Day (The Two Lovers; (broadside): A new song called William and Nancy or The Two Hearts) 7H. She's Like the Swallow (She's Like the Swallow; The Constant Lady and False-Hearted Squire) 7I. I Love You, Jamie (Foolish Young Girl) 7J. I Know my Love by his Way of Walking (I Know My Love) 7K. Love Is Teasing (Love Is Pleasing) 7L. Careless Love (Reckless Love, Loveless Love, Careless Love Blues) 7M. The Colour of Amber (Color of Amber;) 7N. Through Lonesome Woods 7O. Must I Go Bound? 7P. I am a Rover (The Rover) Roud 1112 7Q. Deep in Love (Deep as the Love I'm In) I'm getting ready to start Deep in Love. I have Deep in Love originating with "The Sea-mans leave taken of his sweetest Margery" circa 1629 (Second Part). I think Deep in Love should be different than "Must I Go Bound" which covers a lot more territory - that's just my opinion. It's okay to have both stanzas in the same version- since that's how they appear in broadsides. I just think they are autonomous. I've looked at Baring Gould (the problem) and briefly RV Williams ballads online. Maybe you can provide more evidence. I haven't seen anyone using "The Sea-mans leave taken of his sweetest Margery" circa 1629 (Second Part) as a source. I need to review when I'm not tired. All the best, Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 22 Feb 17 - 09:17 PM Hi, I was just looking as Kidson's "I am a Rover": "O, am I bound or am I free? Or am I bound to marry thee? A married life you soon shall see, A contented mind is no jealousy." which has a different take 'Or am I bound' and there's a broadside. Steve-- what is the date of the broadsides "The Rover" Roud 1112 ? Anyway, the next stanza is from Rashy Moor/Muir the Scottish song: As I crossed over Dannamore," [yon dreary moor/rashy moor] There I lost sight of my true love's door; My heart did ache, my eyes went blind, As I thought of the bonny lass I'd left behind. And it has a stanza from Sailor Boy and Died for Love (I Wish)- talk about floaters. Because it's printed (prob. later part 1800s) I have to include it (and should) as a separate ballad (of floaters!!!) So with the marriage theme in stanza 1, is that "Yon Green Valley"? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 22 Feb 17 - 07:04 PM Hi, I finally wrote about 4 pages of my "Must I Go Bound?" headnotes: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7o-must-i-go-bound.aspx This paragraph from my headnotes (rough draft) sums up some of the confusion: "Must I Go Bound" is associated with and used in the Died for Love songs, particularly "Brisk Young Lover," "Alehouse" and "Butcher Boy." It is also associated with and found in some songs in the related song family such as "My Blue Eyed Boy" and "Love is Teasing." However, since it is part of the Unfortunate Swain broadside it is also used in the ballads and songs associated with that broadside which include "Seeds of Love," "Waly, Waly" and "Deep in Love." Comments welcome, Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 22 Feb 17 - 05:59 PM Hi, One early use of "Must I Go Bound?" that is clearly related to the Died for Love songs is the broadside ballad titled "The Complaining Lover- A New Song" (ca. 1795, Madden Ballads). Here, the first three stanzas are particularly relevant: 1. Must I be bound that can go free, Must I love one that loves not me. Let reason rule thy wretched mind, Altho' I wink I am not blind. 2. He loves another one he loves not me, No cares he for my company, He loves another I'll tell you why Because she has more gold than I. 3. Gold will wast and Silver will flys, In time she may have as little as I, Had I but gold and Silver in store, He would like me as he has done before. Stanzas 2 and 3 are found similarly in Nelly's Constancy of c1686 but the "The Complaining Lover" stanzas are clearly stanzas found in Brisk Young Lover/Alehouse followed by a stanza with "Must I go Bound?"-- which links both. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 22 Feb 17 - 04:37 PM Hi, Under the "Must I Go Bound" title are several Irish ballads/songs, one was published in 1909 and is only two stanzas (the first is repeated). The second stanza appears in Martin Parker's "Distressed Virgin", 1629: I put my finger to the bush, thinking the sweetest Rose to find, I prickt my finger to the bone, and yet I left the rose behind. It's also prominent in "Waly, Waly," and is found in later broadsides. This is from Herbert Hughes "Irish Country Songs" Volume I. 1909: MUST I GO BOUND AND YOU GO FREE- Fragment of an old song from County Derry Must I go bound and you go free, Must I love the lass who wouldn't love me, Was e'er I taught so poor a wit, As to love the lass would break my heart. I put my finger to the bush, To pluck the fairest rose, I pricked my finger to the bone, Ah, but then I left the rose behind. So must I go bound and you go free, Must I love the lass who wouldn't love me, Was e'er I taught so poor a wit, As to love the lass would break my heart. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 22 Feb 17 - 04:27 PM Hi, Here's another use of Must I Go Bound? in the Butcher Boy. Frequently the last two lines of the standard stanza (Unfortunate Swain) are replaced. Also since most versions are sung from the female perspective, the stanza now appears: Must I be bound and you go free? Must I love one who ne'er loved me? Why should I play such a childish part To go after a boy who will break my heart? This would be one way the standard stanza would be found in the Died for Love songs and their relatives. There are earlier broadsides with Must/Shall I Go Bound? but this is a standard stanza that has evolved from the mid-1700s. Butcher Boy- sung by Spencer Moore of Chilhowie, Virginia with guitar; learned in 1925. Recorded by Gwilym Davies in 1997. Transcription R. Matteson, 2017. [guitar intro] In London City where I did dwell, A butcher boy I loved so well, He courted me, my life away, And then with me he would not stay. Must I go bound and you go free, And love the boy who don't love me; He takes another girl on his knee, And he tells her things that he won't tell me. [instrumental] Go dig my grave both wide and deep Place marble at my head and feet, And on my breast a snow-white dove, To show the world I died for love. [instrumental] Must I go bound and you go free, And love the boy who don't love me He takes another girl on his knee And he tells her things that he won't tell me. [instrumental] Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 22 Feb 17 - 04:07 PM Thanks Steve, You're good at filling in the blanks!!! I wanted to point this out (I suspect Steve knew this already)-- the Sailor Boy stanza: If there are thousands, thousands in a Room My Love she carries the brightest Bloom; Sure she is some chosen one, I will have her, or Ill have none. is taken from Picking Lilies/Unfortunate Swain which is also tied into Died for Love with this stanza: Must I be bound, must she be free, Must I love one that loves not me; If I should act such a childish part To love a Girl that will break my heart. which has been adapted in various ways. Another stanza from Unfortunate Swain is used for "Deep in Love" which I consider a separate song. I think it's prudent now to look at the "Must I Go Bound?" songs and the use of "Must I Go Bound?" in Died for Love. Even Jim Cleveland's Butcher Boy (5 posts back) uses it to great advantage: 6. Must I go bound while he goes free, Must I love a boy who won't love me? Or must I live my life in shame, And raise a child without a name? I'll start working on it, Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Steve Gardham Date: 22 Feb 17 - 03:29 PM Possible alternatives for the missing lines: Captain captain, come tell me true, Does my sweet William sail among your crew/on board with you. Oh no fair maiden, he is not here, He's been drowned we greatly fear On yon green island as we passed by Gives us to think lies your sailor boy. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 21 Feb 17 - 11:54 PM Hi, There's a traditional version of "Sailing Trade" in Songs the Whalemen Sang by Gale Huntington dated 1847. The "colour of amber" stanza is a bit different: That short blue jacket he used to wear His rosy cheeks and his coal black hair His lips as smooth as the velvet fine Ten thousand times he has kissed mine. A SAILOR'S TRADE IS A ROVING LIFE -From the log aboard the whaling ship, Elizabeth, port was New Bedford, Massachusetts 1847, Kendall repository. A sailor's trade is a roving life It's robbed me of my heart's delight He has gone and left me awhile to mourn But I can wait till he does return. That short blue jacket he used to wear His rosy cheeks and his coal black hair His lips as smooth as the velvet fine Ten thousand times he has kissed mine. Come father build me a little boat, That o'er the ocean I may float; And every ship that I do pass by, I will enquire for my sailor boy. She had not sailed far o'er the deep[1] Before a king's ship she chanced to meet, Captain captain, send me word Does my sweet William be on board? Oh no fair lady William is not here He's drowned or so I fear On yon green island as we pass Gives the last mark of your sailor boy. She wrung her hands and tore her hair Like some female in deep despair And then her boat to the shore did run Saying how can I live since my sailor's gone. Come all ye women that dress in white Come all ye men that take delight Come haul your colors at half mast high And help me to weep for my sailor boy. I will sit down and write a song I will write it both sweet and long At every line I will drop a tear At every verse: where is my dear. Come dig me a grave both wide and deep Place a marble stone at my head and feet And on my breast a turtle dove To let the world[2] know that I died for love. __________________ Footnote: 1. water was spilled on the log and the next two stanzas read: She had not sailed far o'er Before a king's ship Captain captain, Does my sweet Oh no fair He's On Gives 2. MS missing "To let the world" * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 21 Feb 17 - 11:06 PM Hi, Here's a version of Sailor Boy and Careless Love-- which was collected by my grandfather and is a result of his leading vocal music at Southern Music Vocal Camp at Banner Elk in the summer 1933. Mellinger Henry was a good collector but he couldn't write music, so he persuaded my grandfather to help him. That persuasion ended up becoming the first of his folk Music books, Beech Mountain Folk Songs and Ballads: CARELESS LOVE- sung by Edward Tufts, Banner Elk, NC, July 15, 1933 from Beech Mountain Folk Songs and Ballads, M. Henry and M. Matteson. "Captain, Captain, tell me true: Does my Willie sail with you?" No, oh no, he's not with me- He got drowned in the deep blue sea." Refrain: Love, O love, O careless love, Love, O love, how can it be? Love, O love, O careless love, To love someone that don't love me. Love, O love, O love divine. Love, O love, O love divine. Love, O love, O love divine, Lucile, you know you'll never be mine. Refrain Hail that eaptain as he passes, Hail that captain as he passes, Hail that captain as he passes, That's him, I have my Willie at last. Refrain Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 21 Feb 17 - 10:31 PM Hi, Here's a version mentioned by Steve that is Roud 3461. It's sung from the male perspective and is clearly related although only one stanza is in common, stanza 2. There's one US ballad related to Died for Love from an unknown source usually sung from the male perspective, I'll introduce it later. Dibden Town in stanza 2 is probably "Dibden Purlieu" is a village situated on the edge of the New Forest in Hampshire. Stanza 3 seems like it was plucked from "The Soldier's Return." The last stanzas have the feeling of the end of "Trees They Do Grow High" with life's passing of time. Through Lonesome Woods- sung by Henry Perkes of Cadnam, Hampshire on October 20, 1908. Collected by Gardiner. 1. Through lonesome woods I took my way, So dark, so dark, as dark can be. Where leaves were shivering on every tree Which don't you think 'twas grief to me. 2. As I was going up Dibden town I saw my true love a-sitting down. I saw her sitting on another man's knee, Which don't you think 'twas grief for me. 3. I called my true love by her name, Then up she rose and to me came. I gave her kisses by one, two, three But none so sweet as she gave me. 4. Now the winter's gone, the summer's come, The small birds from the nest is sprung. I'll tell you plainly unto your face, "You're not the young man that I love best." 5. Now the winter's gone, the summer's come, The small birds from their nest is sprung I'll neither borrow nor I'll lend But I'll keep my heart for a better friend. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 21 Feb 17 - 08:09 PM Hi, This is a simple explanation: the Died for Love ballads are similar in style, melody and theme to Sailor Boy/Sweet William. [A maid falls in love, is separated from her love, searches for him, finds he's dead and kills herself.] While singers were blending the two ballads, printers kept printing the same stock broadsides-- not taking tradition into account. Still it seems odd that a version with the added Died for Love stanzas was not printed. The ballad was popular in North America and UK and a number of traditional versions in the US date back to mid-1800s-- so it's been here long before that. Unlike the Butcher Boy, its cousin, no prints were made in the US. I'm posting this excellent version from Jim Cleveland of Brant Lake, New York collected by Gwilym Davies in 1998. Jim is the oldest son of Sara Cleveland (1905-1992) one of the outstanding ballad singers in the US. She got her repertoire from her Irish/Scottish family and local singers. Butcher Boy-- sung by Jim Cleveland (b. 1924) of Brant Lake, New York about 14 February, 1998. 1. In Dublin City, where I did dwell A butcher boy I loved full well, He courted me, both night and day, But with me now he will not stay. 2. When my apron was hanging low My love would follow through rain or snow But now my apron is to my knees He'll pass me by as he knew not me. 3. Oh mother dear I feel so bad I sometimes think I shall go mad; O daughter dear do not grieve so, For life is filled with pain and woe. 4. She went upstairs to make her bed, And nothing to her mother said, Her father came and the door he broke He found her hanging to a rope. 5. He took his knife and cut her down And on her bosom these words he found: A foolish girl, I know am I To hang myself for a butcher boy. 6. Must I go bound while he goes free, Must I love a boy who won't love me? Or must I live my life in shame, And raise a child without a name? 7. Go dig my grave both wide and deep, Place marble stones at my head and feet. And on my breast lay a turtle dove To show the world that I died for love. The setting is Dublin and the "full well" in the second line place it in the UK as an old version. Although short, it's missing nothing and the sixth stanza is very powerful and heart-breaking. This was one of Jim's best ballads. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Steve Gardham Date: 21 Feb 17 - 06:10 PM Commonplaces can and frequently do consist of groups of stanzas, e.g, the page boy messages in Child Ballads. The suicide sequence in all these songs is also of that type. In most cases many of the stanzas should be considered commonplaces. That doesn't stop us looking for relationships and probable evolutionary routes though. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 21 Feb 17 - 03:23 PM Hi, As I pointed out- and this is still bewildering-- all print versions of Sailor Boy/Sweet William have no stanzas in common with the Died for Love songs. The "colour of amber" stanza is common to the four songs I outlined in the last post but is a tangent. The only possible exception is the "For pen and paper to write a song" which is really a floater (as Steve pointed out) unless placed after she discovers her sailor boy is dead (missing) and before her suicide-- then it's a suicide note/song. It's still a weak connection. However, traditional versions of Sailor Boy/Sweet William almost all have stanzas of Died for Love and several have the hanging suicide which means they are related to the Cruel Father/Rambling Boy/Butcher Boy/Maiden's Prayer group. As pointed out in JFSS and other publications, similar melodies are used for both. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Steve Gardham Date: 21 Feb 17 - 01:01 PM Some versions of Sailor Boy are so different that they have no stanzas in common which usually means an early substantial rewrite. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 21 Feb 17 - 12:49 PM Hi, This is the "colour of Amber stanza" from the 1800 "Sailing Trade" that is the 1st stanza and identifying stanza in "Black is the Colour" as well as Mary Ann Haynes ballad collected by Mike Yates in 1974: The colour of amber is my true love's hair, His red rosy cheeks doth my heart ensnare, His ruby lips are soft, and with charms, I've lain many a night in his lovely arms. If you'll notice the last line is corrupt in later editions including Ashton's "Real Sailor Songs" of 1891: The colour of amber is my true love's hair, His red rosy cheeks doth my heart ensnare, His ruby lips are soft, and with charms, I'd fain lay a night in his lovely arms. * * * * Here's the stanza is "The Colour Of Amber" (variant of Early, Early in the Spring--Laws M1 Roud #152) collected in 1951 from Nicholas (Nick) Davis of St Shott's, NL, by MacEdward Leach. Oh, the colour of amber is my love's hair, And her rosy cheeks do my heart ensnare; Her ruby lips so meek and mild, Ofttimes have pressed them to those of mine. Here's the stanza (2nd stanza- I've given three stanzas) in a West Virginia version of Sailor Boy about 1901: Way down on Moment's River side The wind blew fair with gentle guide; A pretty maid that sat and mourned; "What shall I do? My true love's gone. "His rosy cheeks, his coal-black hair, Has drawn my heart all in a snare; His ruby lips so soft and fine, Ten thousand times I've thrust in mine. "And if ten thousand were in a row, My love would make the brightest show, The brightest show of every one; I'll have my love or I'll have none. You'll notice the first stanza is from "Constant Lady" 1686 and is later used in the 1820 Pitts broadside-- it's "crystal river side" in 1686. And last, here's the stanza collected by Cecil Sharp from Lizzie Roberts in North Carolina in 1916: But black is the color of my true love's hair, Her face is like some rosy fair. The prettiest face and the neatest hands, I love the ground whereon he stands. * * * * The oldest US version I've found is an MS from a soldier's diary from the Civil War. His name is William H. Landbeth and he was in Shelby's force in Missouri about 1864: Heart-Rending Boat Ballad 1. father father bild Me a Boat and pot it on the oason that I may float her father was welthy he bilt her a Boat an pot it on the oason that She Mite float She Stopte on the Boat She eride out Goy Now ll find my sweet salar Boy. 2. She handent Bin Snilcn far on the Main She Spide three Ships come in from Spain She hailed each captain as ho drew ni An of him She did in quire of her swee Salar Boy. 3. Capttain Captain tell mo trew if my sweet william is in your crew Il tell you far lady II tell you My Dear your Sweet William is not hoar. 4. At the head of rockeyilent as we past By Will was taken Sick an tharo did die She stove her boat a gains a rock I thaut in my Soal her heart was Break She rong her band She toar her hair Jest like a lady in dis pair. 5. go bring me a Cher for to set on a pen and ink for to set it down at the end or ever line she dropt a tire at the end of ever virs it was o My dire. 6. go dig my grave booth Wide an deep poot a marvel Stone at ray head an feet an on my breast you may corv a dove too let the world no that I dido for love. * * * * Now I don't feel so bad about my spelling and typing :) Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Steve Gardham Date: 21 Feb 17 - 10:53 AM That's a stanza longer than all the versions I have. Thanks for that, Richie, and for the heads up on the Scottish garlands. Gonna be busy for a few days going through these. The extra verse is the penultimate one here. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 20 Feb 17 - 09:19 PM Hi, I assume this is the earliest broadside of The Sailing Trade, a similar text with tune was given by Christie in 1876. This may be the first print with the "colour of amber" stanza. From "Four Excellent New Songs," Edinburgh. Printed by J. Morren about 1800. The Sailing Trade. THE sailing trade is a weary trade; It's rob'd me of my heart's delight, And left me here in tears to mourn, Still waiting for my love's return. Like one distracted this fair maid ran, For pen and paper to write a song: And at every line[1] she dropt a tear, Crying, Alas! for my Billy dear. Thousands, thousands all in a room. My love he carries the brightest bloom; He surely is some chosen one, I will have him, or I'll have none. The grass does grow on every lea, The leaf doth fall from every tree; How happy that small bird doth cry, That[2] has her true love buy her lie. The colour of amber is my true love's hair, His red rosy cheeks doth my heart ensnare, His ruby lips are soft, and with charms, I've lain many a night in his lovely arms. Father, father, build me a boat, That on the ocean I may float; And at every ship that doth pass by, I may enquire for my sailor boy. She had not sail'd long on the deep, Till a man of war she chanc'd to meet, O sailor, send send me word. If my true love Will be on board. Your true love William is not here, For he is kill'd and so I fear; For the other day as we pass'd[3] by, We seed him list in the Victory, At the first ship that she did meet, She did enquire for her Willie sweet; They told her that just the other day, They had lost a brave young sailor boy. She wrung her hands and tore her hair, Crying alas! my dearest dear, And over board her body threw, Bidding all worldly things adieu! FINIS. 1. in this line "at" was misplaced. 2. spelled "Taht" 3. spelled "pase'd" |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Steve Gardham Date: 20 Feb 17 - 05:52 PM Thanks, Richie. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 20 Feb 17 - 05:44 PM Hi, Steve and all, here's a link to Rambling Boy with the Answer: http://digital.nls.uk/chapbooks-printed-in-scotland/pageturner.cfm?id=108856194&mode=fullsize This is a fairly clean copy. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Steve Gardham Date: 20 Feb 17 - 05:38 PM A link will be fine thanks, Richie. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 20 Feb 17 - 05:27 PM Hi, I do have the Perrow version and the three JAF articles he wrote on my site. After Perrow left Harvard he eventually ended up teaching in Missouri, then Mississippi (in 1909) then to Louisville, KY where he taught English. 3. CARELESS LOVE (From Mississippi; country whites; MS. of R. J. Slay; 1909.) I'm going to leave you now; I'm going ten thousand miles. If I go ten million more, I'll come back to my sweetheart again. Love, oh, love! 'tis careless love {twice) You have broken the heart of many a poor boy, But you will never break this heart of mine.* I cried last night when I come home {twice) I cried last night and night before; I'll cry to-night; then I'll cry no more. Who will shoe your pretty feet? And who will glove your hand? Who will kiss your red rosy cheeks? When I am in that far-off land? "Pa will shoe my pretty little feet; Ma will glove my hand; You may kiss my red rosy cheeks, When you come from that far-off land." This has a "True Lover's Farewell" stanza also in "Lonesome Dove"/"Ten Thousand Miles" and the floaters from Child 76 "Who will Shoe" which are also found in "My Blue Eyed Boy" variants. But this is not Child 76 :) Thanks for the Sailor Boy broadsides, I knew to ck Robertson site but I hadn't yet. My earliest was the Pitts c. 1820. Still don't see any Died for Love stanzas from print. The Ashton 'Real Sailor Songs' has this stanza: The colour of amber is my true love's hair, His red rosy cheeks doth my heart ensnare, His ruby lips are soft, and with charms, I'd fain lay a night in his lovely arms. which is floating stanza related to the Black is the Color ballads. I still suspect Niles got his version from Sharp who collected it in 1916 and published it the next year. I have a link to Roberston's "Rambling Boy with the answer"-- there are two editions online 1799 or 1803 and another by a different publisher that's online (pdf) as well (early 1800s). I haven't see the US versions from the early 1800s. I can email a jpeg or give a link, let me know, Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Steve Gardham Date: 20 Feb 17 - 04:34 PM Before you ask here's Goggin. It was early in Spring I went on board to serve the King, The raging seas and the winds blew high, That parted me and my sailor boy. I wish I had a little boat That o'er the Ocean I might float, To watch the French as I pass by, Inquiring for my Sailor boy. We had not Sailed but an hour or two When she beheld the whole ships crew. My whole ships crew tell unto me If my sweet William is on board with thee. Your sweet William he don't sail hear And for his loss we greatly fear. On yon green Island as we passed by It's there we lost your young sailor Boy. She wrung her hands and she tore her hair, Like a fair maiden in deep despair, her boat she flung against the rocks Crying what shall I do since my true love's lost. I'll tell my dream to the hills high; And all the small birds as they fly, Ah, happy, happy is the girl she cried, That has her true-love by her side. Come all ye seamen now dress in blue And all you ladies dress in the same, From the Cabbin boy to the main mast high, And mourn in black for my sailor boy. I don't recognise the first 2 lines of stanza 6 and any of stanza 7. The whole definitely smacks of having been taken from oral tradition. There is a very strong likelihood of earlier printings going back at least to about 1770. There is absolutely nothing to suggest the original was Irish. When I get time I'll do a mini study of all the broadsides, but I need to have a much more detailed look at the 2 Rambling Boy pieces first. Could you please let me have a copy of the 'The Rambling Boy and Answer'? My Robertson copy is difficult to decipher in places |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Steve Gardham Date: 20 Feb 17 - 04:18 PM Sweet William/The Sailor Boy (Roud 273). The earliest I have appears to be the Goggin of Limerick starting 'It was early in spring' of about 1780 but there seems to have been a variety of versions by c1800. Here's a summary of broadside versions I have access to. The Sailor Boy/The Sailing Trade usually with 9 sts later 8, fl 'The sailing trade is a weary life/trade', Robertson printed it in 1801 and there is a version in Ashton's 'Real Sailor Songs' p63, Johnston, Falkirk also printed it about the same time. In 1817 Hutchinson of Glasgow. The Sailor Boy, Goggin, with 7 sts 'It was early in Spring' Brereton's you have and then a 9 sts version with no imprint 'The Constant Lover and her Salior Boy' 'Early early all in the spring' (Irish) Sailor Boy/ The Maid's Lament for her Sailor Boy fl, 'Down by a chrystal riverside' 7 sts as you have it, printed by Evans, Pitts and Catnach. Then the later Harkness which you have with 8 sts. I'll check the Goggin but I think you have versions of all the others. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Steve Gardham Date: 20 Feb 17 - 03:49 PM The JAFL version is from an article 'Songs and Rhymes from the South' by Perrow. p147 No3. |
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